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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Thought "feminist" meant women standing with women, was I so wrong?

129 replies

ShineyNewName99 · 29/01/2018 20:42

Today, I really needed someone by my side. I was challenging in person some pretty dubious characters in respect of speaking truth in a difficult situation (think what you like). Sent a call out for "wimmin" to stand with me what did I find? Resounding echoes of silence........

Except........................

In a small corner of an otherwise unknown universe a saviour appeared.

In the form of an Anglican Chaplain, (yes a man) who lent his calm and compassionate self in a most trying situation, with no agenda, no dogma, just a desire to support and empower a person in pain.

Lesson learnt - never rely on the "sisterhood" they always let you down.....

OP posts:
Original poster
ShineyNewName99 · 30/01/2018 20:06

I am back but really not up to writing about the issue here tonight. I have to prepare a full transcript of the interaction with the prat I had to challenge yesterday. Thankfully in a former life I studied audio typing so all I have to do is to edit and take out spelling mistakes etc. As you might imagine I was banging the keyboard rather firmly throughout the whole hour.

OP posts:
ArcheryAnnie · 30/01/2018 20:23

Good luck, shiney. (How's the head?!)

Original poster
ShineyNewName99 · 30/01/2018 20:30

A bit muggy Archery - fighting fire with fire at the moment Wine

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 30/01/2018 20:33

Take it easy with the WineGrin

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 30/01/2018 20:33

Cheers Wine

DullAndOld · 30/01/2018 20:36

why 'wimmin'?]
You sound like an idiot frankly,.

ArcheryAnnie · 30/01/2018 21:00

@DullAndOld - read the thread. The OP had a very difficult day followed by a well-lubricated night, and I think could do with a bit less bashing, and a bit more support, now we know why she started the thread.

Payfrozen · 30/01/2018 21:02

asked colleagues who I thought were "gender critical" to come to my aid

I am sorry you found yourself isolated. It sounds horrible. It may be colleagues were too scared to openly support you.

Alternatively they may not share your views. I have managed 4 discussions in RL apart from with my DH and teens.

  1. a colleague in work (highly educated, lesbian) who genuinely disagreed with every point I made about medicalising children and women's sport etc. I thought she would definitely be in agreement.

  2. a friend with a job that involves feminist politics who clearly thinks I'm being transphobic. I sent a link to the AWS go fund me and she replied, "this would be discriminating against tranwomen and that's not on." Again no overlap although I'm not giving up.

  3. my 2 best friend in the world and I have only very recently managed a quick conversation, whispered. We agree with each other but all have jobs where our views would be controversial to say the least. These are my oldest, closest friends and we have only in the last few weeks been able to talk about it.

I won't stop. I will keep quietly trying to offer the alternative view to this bandwagon. I cannot think of another issue where I have not been able to be outspoken in my responsible but "right on" area of work.

I am used to being influential and offering leadership in my workplace. I just need to figure out how to do this on this subject in this climate.

DonnyAndVladSittingInATree · 30/01/2018 21:07

Maybe the chaplain is a feminist. Men can be those you know.

Payfrozen · 30/01/2018 21:10

Donny the women I have talked to who didn't agree with me are feminists. This issue is dividing groups of people who usually have so much common ground.

Makes you wonder who it would suit to have feminists divided Hmm

DonnyAndVladSittingInATree · 30/01/2018 21:15

Oh sorry, I was talking to OP when she said about feminism meaning “women standing with women” and being surprised when a man came to her aid. Maybe that man is a feminist. Maybe the women OP called on aren’t. Maybe they are and arent brave enough to stick their heads above the parapet. Can we blame them? We all know men are given an ear that is denied to women so perhaps it was better for OP that a man supported her than a woman. It will have been easier for him to step forward. Men have an expectation of being heard.

Original poster
ShineyNewName99 · 30/01/2018 21:22

I think the most interesting thing about having the Chaplain there was that he didn't actually say a word during the entire discussion (he didn't need to), there was something about him just being there sat beside me that gave me the confidence and strength to speak the truth.

At one point I asked the guy I was talking to "We are in the presence of a man of God, do you believe in God?" To which he responded that he felt that was irrelevant but eventually after I pressed him further said it was "probably not the same God you worship". To which I responded so you do believe in "a" God? Yes was the response. Well that is good I say because we can therefore both agree that it would take divine intervention to create a man out of a women as we biologists have not yet cracked it! His face was a picture Halo

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 30/01/2018 21:30

Thank you for standing up, the whole thing's a headfuck isn't it? It's worth posting in employment issues and/or legal to get some proper advice on how best to navigate this.

This is something that's been worrying me for a while about MN's role in these debates - we're a mainstream women's website and also a leading voice in the gender critical debate. It's quite likely a fair few women are coming off MN having been fired up to make their views heard and are totally unprepared for the RL flack that can follow.

This came up for me at work about 4 years ago and I was totally unprepared. I stated my case and all hell let loose. I walked before I was pushed and I'm extremely lucky that this all coincided with a much bigger unrelated issue that resulted in a major staff turnover including all the management. Otherwise I'd probably be unemployable. I now keep my head down. I'd hate to lose my current job and it's unlikely I'd get another in this field if that happened. I am however clearly visible in two videos that went viral last autumn and if push comes to shove I will say what I think. We have enough money to manage if I didn't have a job. Most people can't risk that.

We need to:

  1. Do everything we can to support and adequately prepare any woman who can afford to speak out.

  2. Recognise that there are many, many women who cannot speak out, in some or all contexts, and support the things they can do, whether that's writing to their MP, signing a petition, donating to a fund, responding to a consultation, braving twitter ...

Payfrozen · 30/01/2018 21:48

Donny of course you are right about the chaplain. I was just being sad about my feminist friends and me not agreeing.

Pencils that is a proper cautionary tale. I'm glad you've been able to move on.

I thought hard about going to the A Woman's Place meeting. I thought about raising it in advance with my feminist line manager. I haven't done either yet.

DonnyAndVladSittingInATree · 30/01/2018 22:00

Ahh ok, yes I see now what you were saying.

Stickystickstick · 30/01/2018 22:47

Rattles is that you? (Familiar language and ranting style in OP and subsequent)

Anyhoo. I’d have come along even if I didn’t necessarily agree with your stance because I love a fight and no one should go into what sounds like an official work meeting or disciplinary/investigation situation alone if they can help it. I’d do that for men or women - not a sisterhood thing. That said from the little fact you’ve shared I probably do agree with your stance.

ExFunFeminist · 30/01/2018 23:04

Pencils You mention this coming up in work for you four years ago. I have seen other posters mentioning they have been reading up on this for a few years. I have only recently been made aware of how the proposed GRA is very different to the GRA 2004, and of the aggressiveness from trans activists (and the hand-holding from MRAs). (I previously blindly nodded along to anything which on face value seemed progressive). Could you educate me what is was that bought this to your attention, and others, a few years ago? Is it purely because of the GRA proposals, TRA/MRA activism or both/neither, or something else?

Original poster
ShineyNewName99 · 30/01/2018 23:27

Ok, I am once again in full rant mode having had suffice of wine.

This is what is upsetting me, I sent out a call for help to the local feminist community via a well known and respected source. The situation was explained in some detail (it has been ongoing for some 12 months) and I had hoped that someone somewhere in a city so large might just hear my desperate plea for support.

Some 24 hours plus after the confrontation took place at the highest levels guess how many of the local feminist group has contacted me to ask "Are you ok?" "How did it go?" Yes you guessed it - absolutely zero.

This is the very reason I abandoned left wing politics years ago as I learned very early on that when your back is to the wall the screaming banshees that claim to support women's rights and stand "shoulder to shoulder" with their sisters in times of greatest need are in fact nowhere to be found.

I have found the greatest supporters in the grass roots when needing support for whatever reason be it professional or personal tend to come from what might be considered the most unlikely sources i.e. men and women from a right of centre position. This factor altered my perception entirely and I for one am glad I ditched the entrenched idea that only the left wing care about people because quite frankly it just isn't true. Left wingers will throw you to the wolves very quickly when it doesn't suit their own personal agenda to do so. Just look at one Mr Corbyn for instance on his stance for "trans" rights.

Rant over

OP posts:
DonnyAndVladSittingInATree · 30/01/2018 23:41

Right so you have no truck with feminists or left wingers... except when you need help, and then are surprised when none of these people you have no time for have, er... no time for you. Right.

I’m a bit confused about why you didn’t just go to your right wing friends in the first place considering you say they’re the ones who step up for you.

BarrackerBarmer · 30/01/2018 23:41

When you say "the local feminist community", do you know the views of the women shouted out to?

Because I hate to say it, but there is a very high chance that local feminist groups are not only libfem and supportive of gender identity, but quite possibly run by transwomen too.

Are you sure your shout out went to women you know are gender critical?

MrsTerryPratchett · 30/01/2018 23:51

Your local feminists may be libfem, drank the Koolaid, centre the menz types. They may just have fundamentally disagreed with you.

They're wrong, of course. But internally cogent in their stance.

100YearsOfVote · 30/01/2018 23:55

Well you're proudly not a feminist OP yet you are berating other women for not being a supportive feminist sisterhood when you wanted one. HmmHmm

The only thing you can change here is yourself Smile

Original poster
ShineyNewName99 · 31/01/2018 00:19

In response in order:

  1. No-one in the city in question knows me or my views, therefore they could not have known whether or not I am a feminist, left winger or whatever. I naively thought that a woman in need might just have been enough to acquire support from women local to the area. I didn't go to my "right wing friends" because the confrontation happened 200 miles away from my home.
  1. The local feminist group is hosting a Womans Place event so I think it is pretty clear what their views are hence my call for help
  1. I think I will not bother changing as this has reinforced my existing view that when women need help asking other women is futile
OP posts:
DonnyAndVladSittingInATree · 31/01/2018 00:22

Hmm, maybe there was something about the way you phrased your request for help. Maybe they sensed something...

Original poster
ShineyNewName99 · 31/01/2018 00:26

I doubt it Donny, this rant admittedly has not shown me in the best of light due to the abundance of imbibed alcohol, however when I asked for help and support it was done in a calm and measured manner with details and painful explanation of the reasons for high level confrontation

OP posts: