Why is the definition of a woman so confusing these days?

[Fairenuff]

I know it's probably been done to death but it used to be so simple.

There were men and women. All kinds of different people but two sexes.

But now no-one can define what a woman is.

We know it's not clothes, hair or make-up
We're being told it's not having a vagina, periods or child bearing
It's nothing to do with the male/female brain

So what is it? Is it purely down to chromosones?

And if it is, how can people without female chromosones still say that they are a woman?

I imagine people will primarily ask the question

What question? "Are you pretending to identify as female so that you can go into a women's prison and rape women?"

sorry trans boys and men that should say

I've asked loads of time, in order to try to clarify this:

Does anyone have a definition of "woman" that includes women and transwomen, but excludes men (and transmen) and that doesn't include the word woman

No-one has such a definition.

DH's hair is longer sometimes, and not to show off or anything but he has quite nice legs (and is vain enough to know that). Must tell him that he's a woman!

Maryz I do understand the potential for problems, I just think (and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one) that the potential problem isn't hugely likely. Have you ever met people who perhaps don't see the big deal here? It isn't because we aren't bright enough to follow the logic, we just don't think the worst case scenarios are likely. I don't think you're going to get hoardes of predatory men saying anything they need to say to get into the ladies' loos, and that no-one will have the ounce of intelligence required to find a legal way to stop them if they do.

I don't think "what it means" - and that being universal - really matters as much as one might think

God, are we post-language now?

Even the post-modernists assumed some sort of communicable meaning, surely?

I guess expecting people to drop things that happened a day or two ago down the memory hole is in keeping with the kind of thinking that leads a person to believe that it doesn't matter whether or not we have a word to refer to the group of people formerly known as women.

What question? "Are you pretending to identify as female so that you can go into a women's prison and rape women?"

I'm sure that will go down well, eh? Given that even asking if a person has a penis leads to angry shrieking about transphobia.

Okay, so let's count all the hundreds of threads I've ever been active on over the years. Looks like this trans thing is totally my cause doesn't it, what with those three I posted on lately. Not that it shouldn't be my cause, it just doesn't happen to be - and I'm clearly not lying about that.

I'm selfish in my interest really; I'm trying to maximise my chances of coming out of this on the right side of history.

Stop going on about toilets.

Prisons, sports. Sex based protections. Women's charities. Women's positions where there are quotas, women only prizes. 50/50 on boards can be achieved with 100% dicks.

I mean I get that you don't think any of this is "very likely" the thing is, it's already happening. TIM with working cocks have already been put in prisons with women. A TIM has already been given access to a womens refuge and sexually assaulted women that he was bunked with.

Just because you can't imagine it happening (much / at all?) doesn't mean it won't. Most women are well aware of the lengths pervy men will go to to get access to potential victims. The appeal of getting moved to a womens prison is completely obvious, even if you aren't a sex offender.

That's nice. Meanwhile the rest of us are trying to minimize the harm to women and girls. Which makes sense, this being a feminist board and all.

"The potential problem isn't hugely likely"

Do you really believe that?

Here's my challenge:
My definition (and the one which has precedence) is woman means adult human female.
(I can expand upon each of those terms but I'll assume good faith that readers and I have a mutually agreed understanding of them)
My definition helpfully
1.encompasses half of the adult human race, and even more helpfully, 2.objectively distinguishes them clearly from the other half.

Here's my challenge:
Who can offer an alternative, useful and meaningful definition that improves upon those features, and does not exclude the original members from their own word?

I absolutely appreciate it is happening UpABitLate. I don't have an answer to that, or a way to resolve it, and this is one of the main things that keeps me wavering back to the fence when I think I've come down on one side of it.

I'm not willing to risk an unspecified number of women girls being harmed on the premise of "well, it probably won't happen". Especially when we already have plenty of evidence about the lengths men will go to in order to get access to women and girls.

If some of them are willing to hide in a septic tank then filling in a form is nothing. And if the cultural shift that TRAs are hoping for happens they won't even have to do that, because it will be socially unacceptable to question a man's presence in a woman's space because he might be trans and then you'd be a bigot.

I really do Maryz. Perhaps I see to much the best in people, or perhaps it's because I'm not on Twitter.

Sorry I had to pop out to wee on all the lamp-posts in my street. On Tuesday evenings between 7-8pm I identify as a male dog. I'm thinking of entering Crufts next year.

Rat the "This Never Happens" facebook page lists the frequent occurence of people who say they are transwomen committing crimes against women. It's a public page so you don't need to be in facebook to view it. The worst case scenarios you blithely say are unlikely are already happening.

sport

Criminals Marie Dean and Tara Hudson, to name just two.

Topshop Travis - who identifies as a 15 year old girl at the weekends [baffled]

hospitals and mental health units

US maternity guidelines now using "pregnant persons" to avoid accusations of transphobia.

Shall I go on?

So wait, your position is that you know it's already happening and yet somehow you still think it won't happen?

I don't think the floodgates are going to open and somehow the immoral or criminal behaviour of outliers is going to become commonplace, no. I'm prepared to be convinced.

Seriously, think about it.

Your 13 year old dd wants to try on clothes in TopShop with her friends and meets Travis. She goes to the gp for period issues and asks for a female nurse for an internal examination and gets a "woman" with an Adam's apple and a beard. She spends years training for a sport, but is beaten to the gold medal (and her university scholarship) by a boy

She is raped and has to see a male-appearing policeman, she is examined by a man. Her rapist is included in the "female" crime stats and placed in a female prison.

All these things are happening. On a daily basis, if you look. Of course it's hard to see sometimes as they are all reported with women's names and usually no photographs [cynical]

Really easy question for RatRolyPoly

Should the definition of woman be adult human female: yes or no?

I'll sleep on it Maryz.

Meanwhile the rest of us are trying to minimize the harm to women and girls.

Yes. And if you can't get behind that, WTF are you doing on a feminist board?

I mean, if any particular individual wants really badly to remain naive then that's their choice, but it would be prudent to step out of the way and allow those who're a bit more street smart to prepare for what happens if their starry eyed "oh I just think people are nice really" view doesn't quite work out as hoped.