Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

413 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 26/01/2018 12:36

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 11:46

"16 is still far too young to take hormones imo."

But it's old enough to get married and have sex and join the army?

"I’m speechless at your racial comment. You’ve definitely been drinking too much of the TRA cool aid. This is just one of the bogus and bigoted argument they make. Along with calling mainstream feminists feminazis or transnazis. It’s they themselves, who are acting like the Nazis, not the other way round."

Given I haven't made any racial comment, I'm astounded. Did you intend to reply to someone else?

LapdanceShoeshine · 27/01/2018 11:57

am I really as likely to be raped by a transwoman's dick as I am by a man's? Really? Or is it the man with the appendage who's more likely to assault me rather than his body part? I doubt anyone has the stats.

There won’t be any such stats because offences committed by transwomen are now reported as being by women Hmm

TheBrilliantMistake · 27/01/2018 12:01

Thank you for the further stats Lang. I will read them.
The summary of those stats was 57 trans sexual offenders in 80,000 male prisoners, but until I've read it in entirety, not sure what that indicates either way!
I'm reluctant to say more on any suggestion they are more or less likely to offend until I know more.

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 12:03

HairyBallTheorem loved your post.

"So I think the argument goes "There are no clear-cut criteria for identifying natural kinds - and that includes binary sex distinctions (hence TRA's emphasis on appropriating intersex conditions). And in any case, supposedly natural kinds are often socially-based categories of interest which tell us as much about social beliefs as they do about scientific fact. This being so, why shouldn't we define "woman" not according to our narrow and imperfect scientific interpretation of the word (science which comes loaded with a tacit and unexamined bias towards social conservatism), but instead in terms of other considerations such as creating a more tolerant, inclusive and open society."

Great summation. As a dedicated post modernist though, I'd point out that this is the problem with binary gender. Because we say that there are only two genders, the logic goes that there are only two sexes, but there aren't because intersex exists.

So you say 'a woman is a biological female' and then run into 'how do you define a biological female' and it all gets a bit sticky. Are you still female if you've had a hysterectomy? And there's no point relying on chromosomes, because some people who have 'girl' on their birth certificate actually have 'male' chromosomes because they're intersex.

What most of us go on in situations where we're not naked, is facial features, general body size and shape, and clothing/hairstyles, and if someone is speaking, their voice. In situations where we are naked, we go on external genitalia.

So the answer to 'transwomen are women' should be 'that's irrelevant if you've got a communal changing room and someone has a penis, because these facilities are single sex, not single gender. Yes sex is in reality not entirely binary but for most people external bodily sexual characteristics are the important issue'

Which neatly gets round the whole thing and stops you disappearing up your own post modernist backside. The key thing here is what sex do you appear to be with your clothes off. Nice and simple.

That and gender/sex neutral single cubicles basically.

Which is why getting into the transwomen are/aren't women argument is a dead end.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 12:05

From what I've seen of the Lila Perry story, this is a human being who's trying to get on with their life.

Did you watch the video of Lila being interviewed? Because most people I know who're just trying to get on with their lives don't appear on TV with no underpants on and their bits swinging in the breeze.

(I feel like "go google "what is autogynephilia?" might be a more efficient response to these types of comments.)

Datun · 27/01/2018 12:06

Subsequent data released by HM prisons (forgive me, no time to search it out for a link) revealed that the Fair Play For Women analysis had slightly UNDERestimated these figures.

And this is it. Women are told that it's wrong to lump transwomen in with men, or to fear or object to them on the same basis.

That transwomen are women and women can therefore disregard any feelings or opinion to the contrary.

Or face being transphobic.

There were no statistics on category A transwomen prisoners.

So staticians and scientists did the leg work themselves.

The information was analysed from individual inspection reports. Where it wasn't available, they didn't include it. Deliberately.

It was subsequently published in the newspapers and broadcast on TV. Representatives from mermaids ( Owl or Fox, I can't remember) and transactivists tiredness to discredit them. Writing letters to the papers and on Twitter. Saying the statistics were wrong, the study was flawed and it was just feminists being bigoted.

So the ministry of justice, presumably under pressure, suddenly collated, analysed and published their own figures. Which indeed, as predicted, because now all the information was available, showed that the women had underestimated their figures.

I'm not sure if it's misogyny, or a genuinely held belief, that women are somehow incapable of addressing these issues, logically, rationally, and irrefutably. Based on science, evidence and statistics.

Because it seems to be quite widely held belief, and is very much mistaken.

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?
AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 12:06

As a dedicated post modernist though, I'd point out that this is the problem with binary gender.

Ah, now I see your problem.

guardianfree · 27/01/2018 12:07

Elsie2971
I understand what you mean by savvy and to a limited extent I agree, pick your battles etc.

BUT I get exhausted by the sheer delusional range of all the demands by transactivists. While I appreciate that social media enables this and gives air space to many fools, take a look at this mumsnet thread for an example of the consequences for young lesbians of TAs demands.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community

How on earth do we decide which oppressive demand that they make to challenge? I suspect that until we have successfully pushed back the the principle of
I believe the earth is flat and you MUST agree with me and change all laws to reflect this , this will continue.
We need politicians to understand the delusions - 'the penis is a female organ' and to understand that while they support self ID they are supporting a regressive and anti - democratic cult which is doing harm to others (especially children).

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 12:08

Are you still female if you've had a hysterectomy?

Is a bird that's somehow lost a wing in a tragic accident still a bird? I dunno, it might be a cat. We should ask Judith Butler.

Mummyoflittledragon · 27/01/2018 12:08

Yes my comment was meant for Rat.

BarrackerBarmer · 27/01/2018 12:08

It's funny how the 'disruptors' who think woman might be something other than biology because don't also argue that yorkshire terriers might be hamsters, or penguins might be fish.
If you can acknowledge that 'tiny furball' isn't an adequate categorisation of rodent, or 'slippery swimming thing" doesn't reclassify a bird into a fish, then why the sudden blind spot about human dimorphic sex?

The classification is as binary as it gets. Male and female are mutually exclusive.

The ultimate, critical difference is our biology. What our bodies do. This is primary. This is what divides us into two, mutually exclusive groups.

What is secondary, is how recognisable we are to others as a member of one group or the other. And almost without exception, that happens effortlessly and accurately.

And then. We get our differential treatment. Tertiary. The sexism, the roles and the rules and the restrictions.

To suggest that experiencing some tertiary aspects somehow overrides the fundamental primary category is plainly nonsense. Suggesting a yorkshire terrier knows what it's like to be a hamster because it is tiny, furry and can rip up toilet rolls with its teeth is no more ludicrous than imagining that a man with a male reproductive system is the same as the billions of females because his eyebrows were on fleek and someone just wolf whistled him.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 12:11

*I'm not sure if it's misogyny, or a genuinely held belief, that women are somehow incapable of addressing these issues, logically, rationally, and irrefutably. Based on science, evidence and statistics.

Because it seems to be quite widely held belief, and is very much mistaken.*

And then when we're proved to have been correct in the first place the answer is just that the data is unkind and hurts people's feelings.

MyNameIsInigoMantoya · 27/01/2018 12:12

DonkeySkin

One thing I would take issue with is that I don't think anybody believes 'transwomen' are 'real woman'.

It would be interesting to see how many people do. I think some TRAs and their supporters really do think that, but I expect you're right for the vast majority. But part of the problem as I see it is that some powerful organisations (e.g. sporting bodies that allow transwomen to compete with women) are acting as though transwomen really ARE women, even if they would not necessarily make that claim explicitly. I guess the deeper question is: given that most people probably don't believe transwomen are real women, why are they acting as though transwomen actually are real women? And YY, this is tied up with misogyny and results from the low status society accords women.

The Patriarchy needs to deny the validity of women's experiences to justify itself, so is deaf to the voices of women who want to make it clear just how big a part of a woman's experience is all the crap stuff that should be shared equally between men and women. The high-profile and most vocal TRAs do seem very focused on a type of femininity that does not reflect the social construct of femininity in reality. You could say it's actually one of the biggest arguments against the idea that all transwomen are the same and that all self-proclaimed transwomen should be allowed to self-identify as women. Many don't want to identify as women, they just want to cherry-pick their favourite parts - and do this at the expense of actual women.

This is ultimately the problem, as has been pointed out here and on other threads. TRAs in general do not support feminism. They may claim to do so, but their actions show otherwise. They want to express their freedom of choice by being women in the way they want to be women, and as a result don't acknowledge the problems faced by women in daily life.

I feel very sorry for transwomen who do just want to go about their daily lives, living as close to a woman's real life as possible. Transgenderism was once considered to be a difficult and complex situation and most thoughtful people were broadly sympathetic. The obsession with self-identity, the belief that a person can be whatever sex they feel they should be, has taken over. Society is no longer trying to make the lives of transwomen better in a thoughtful way.

Maybe that's the simplest explanation of all. Real life is incredibly messy, full of contradictions and unforeseen consequences, and is often so complex that being able to work out the "correct" answer to a problem is not even possible. But we humans are biased towards wanting simple answers and straight-forward and definitive belief systems. We live in a period where the attitude of welcoming simple answers to complex situations is in the ascendency. "Let transwomen be equivalent to real women" is a simple answer to a large set of very difficult existential problems regarding what it means to be a human being.

There are periods in any culture where social beliefs and intellectual ideas diverge. The revolution in the understanding of how humans make choices and define their own identities (or have their identities defined for them by society) has not yet fed through to Anglo-Saxon culture. The older generation has taken a lot of the brunt of this disparity, being blamed for being stuck in antiquated modes of thought. However, it's actually the younger generation who are most deeply invested in the social belief of absolute freedom of choice, and I think this a big part of why so many young people are so dreadfully unhappy. They expect to be able to make choices about their own lives - to choose to excel at academia, for example, or to choose to be seen as beautiful and popular - that are not in their power.

The transwoman debate is a test case of ideology vs reality. What I'd dearly love to see is for the scientists and intellectuals to come on to public forums and explain the mechanisms that underpin human behaviour and thus explain why it is that a transwoman is not the equivalent of a biological woman. But that's not easy when, as Gove would put it, we've "had enough of experts", and intellectuals who don't toe the line are publicly castigated. The "your conscious mind is not what you think it is" idea is not going to be an easy sell at the best of times!

Datun · 27/01/2018 12:12

And then. We get our differential treatment. Tertiary. The sexism, the roles and the rules and the restrictions.

Yes. It was summed up for me by someone saying that inferring what something is doesn't determine what it is.

It's a goalpost move. Women need segregation because of the way they are treated. Therefore the way they are treated determines what they are. No.

Hell, if one wants to go down that road, give me a world where women are treated completely equally to men, whilst having their biology acknowledged and accommodated.

Then I won't care how we categorise.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 12:13

$%#$%$

Not sure why I suddenly can't do bold. Must be an extra space in there somewhere.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 12:13

$%#$%$

Not sure why I suddenly can't do bold. Must be an extra space in there somewhere.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 12:14

$%#$%$

Not sure why I suddenly can't do bold. Must be an extra space in there somewhere. Sorry, I know it's annoying visually.

Datun · 27/01/2018 12:16

And then when we're proved to have been correct in the first place the answer is just that the data is unkind and hurts people's feelings.

Or the data is not enough because the numbers are too small.

Completely ignoring that the data is based on a subset of the cohort men. Half the population

Not an entirely different species.

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 12:17

Agreed, Montoya. There are a number of different groups for whom women no longer being able to name and thus discuss our experiences works out very nicely. The younger people pushing the trans women are women line hardest are oblivious to this, and think it's a simple social justice issue. It's not.

CapnHaddock · 27/01/2018 12:17

Lila Perry, just trying to get on with their life Hmm

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?
CapnHaddock · 27/01/2018 12:17

Lila Perry, just trying to get on with their life Hmm

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?
CapnHaddock · 27/01/2018 12:17

Lila Perry, just trying to get on with their life Hmm

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?
AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 12:19

Kind of glad to see it's not just me having posting issues...

CapnHaddock · 27/01/2018 12:19

Oh god sorry! Computer had a brain fart. No one really needed to see that so many times Blush

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 12:20

Did you watch the video of Lila being interviewed? "

No, I haven't. I agree that Perry should not be in the girls changing room - I've said so. And yes I have heard of autogynephilia. But that doesn't mean I don't believe every single transwoman is just a wannabe perv who wants to get into a girls changing room. No doubt if the GRA were to get passed as proposed, that would give those who are just pervs who want to go into a girls changing room a free pass. But I don't believe it will be, because it was Justine Greening's baby, and Justine Greening has gone, and there's been too much negative press. This government has got enough on its plate without making any more trouble for itself.