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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women come last in Labour's deranged victim hierarchy - Rod Liddle in The Spectator

281 replies

AttillaThePun · 25/01/2018 08:01

No punches pulled (but no names named either, probably sensible):

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/women-come-last-in-labours-deranged-victim-hierarchy/

OP posts:
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6
ladyballs · 25/01/2018 23:21

Well done Kiss

Waddlelikeapenguin · 25/01/2018 23:47

KissMaCis great work Star

TheCraicDealer · 25/01/2018 23:52

Great work Kiss, I was following the original thread and you could really see the effort you were putting in to get this some exposure. You did what no-one else here has managed, that's not to be sniffed at.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 03:19

My take is that when you take the pomo goggles off the fact that people with penises and Y chromosomes are not women is at a "water is wet" level of obviousness, and that's exactly the tack we should take if anyone gets shirty about conservative journalists writing about this. Yeah, sure, we disagree with them on most other things, but when a radfem and a conservative man agree on this issue how incredibly fucking clear and obvious a problem must the thing they're agreeing on be?

Conservatives and misogynists agree with us about the fact that gravity exists too, and that's at about the same level of "well duh" as this is. Let's try to emphasize that angle.

(Totes appreciate your willingness to leverage your press contacts btw, KissMyCis. Hope you got some rest!)

thebewilderness · 26/01/2018 04:15

Conservatives and misogynists agree with us about the fact that gravity exists too, and that's at about the same level of "well duh" as this is. Let's try to emphasize that angle.

thebewilderness · 26/01/2018 04:33

Authoritarian males on the left and the right have argued for millennia over how best to position the boot on women's neck.
Women are not a side in the political game, we are the effing ball.

pilatesofthecaribbean · 26/01/2018 05:06

“(Apart from the transphobia, obviously).”

Transphobia my arse.

EmyRoo · 26/01/2018 07:15

Well said thebewilderness

Ereshkigal · 26/01/2018 09:18

I would rather keep him the fuck away from me. (And if that's the price for never 'winning' an argument on here and having 'ideological purity') I am more than happy to pay it.

Except we all know your views are not gender critical. Don't be disingenuous. You can afford to be ideologically pure because it's not your argument. It's not about Liddle, it's about getting press attention and bringing the issue to a wider audience. Which I'm sure that you, like your "feminist hero" Roz Kaveney, don't actually want.

Ereshkigal · 26/01/2018 09:19

Conservatives and misogynists agree with us about the fact that gravity exists too, and that's at about the same level of "well duh" as this is. Let's try to emphasize that angle.

This is exactly it.

EmyRoo · 26/01/2018 09:57

I think the Contaus article gets across the distinction between gender as an oppressive set of social norms (sex roles) and gender as an innate identity well. Clarifying that distinction is important, because different groups are using gender to mean different things.

I don’t understand gender as an innate identity because I see it as a set of (oppressive) social norms. One can and should be able to opt out of those social norms, fit with some and not others, challenge, resist or conform to those social norms as one wishes, without facing discrimination. But the ability to do that is separate from the material reality of whether you are male or female, surely? I think that is the crux of the argument.

And the provisions to allow women to participate in social, public and political life are based on material reality of sexed bodies (same sex bathroom space, maternity rights, sanitary provision in same sex bathroom space, rape crisis centres, refuges, equal rights in the workplace and so on,which give us freedoms not to be dependent on men for protection). The TRA argument is that sexed bodies can be changed (or don’t need to be changed as gender is in your head) and a man can become a woman and vice versa; the feminist argument is that sexed bodies cannot be changed, even with surgery and hormones, because biological sex is innate, structural oppression (gender norms) is built on that, and that gender is externally imposed.

The problem is that in theory, it looks possible to change sex with hormones and surgery and a society willing to engage with that possibility; in practice, there are massive risks and it appropriates the experiences and lived reality of those born in the desired sex.

So there is a debate to be had. The debate is being silenced. The conservative press are picking it up (thank you *Kiss) finally, for reasons already upthread.

I don’t think it is an accident that this is happening when women (on paper) have a range of social and financial freedoms denied to them 150 years ago, and had moved beyond needing male protection. Even in fighting this, we are saying we need (conservative or liberal in the old sense) men on board to protect daughters, wives, mothers.

Sorry, just musing out loud, because I am trying to get my head around this. I feel sorry for trans people who just want to live their lives and find themselves caught up in this maelstrom. There are people who genuinely have gender dysphoria, who understand this does not make them the other sex and they cannot be the other sex and they do what they can to alleviate their own distress. It’s not them who are suspending and threatening women. Provision of a third space beyond male/female would help here, but that does not seem to be the aim.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 10:04

It's not just that third spaces aren't the aim, it's that they've been actively rejected as transphobic by TRAs.

Meanwhile in Thailand that's exactly the option that's being pursued in schools in at least one area, and their traditional third gender (khathoey) are welcoming it.

EmyRoo · 26/01/2018 10:18

Why have they been rejected as transphobic?

Disabled people don’t see separate bathroom space as disablist, I don’t think, or the Paraolympics as disablist. I am not sure whether an all disabled people shortlist would be disablist, though - disabled people would be on a general or AW shortlist depending on their sex, and the EQA would work against discrimination on the basis of disability.

Which brings us back to the competing protections of sex and gender in the EQA.

Round in circles, I need to get on with my day, I think.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 10:22

Because having a third space means that society is tacitly acknowledging that trans women aren't really women and trans men aren't really men, and that hurts people's feelings/makes them angry, depending on the specific position they're coming from.

nauticant · 26/01/2018 10:44

I don’t understand gender as an innate identity because I see it as a set of (oppressive) social norms. One can and should be able to opt out of those social norms, fit with some and not others, challenge, resist or conform to those social norms as one wishes, without facing discrimination. But the ability to do that is separate from the material reality of whether you are male or female, surely? I think that is the crux of the argument.

I think that's the crux of the argument in some contexts but not in others. In many contexts this would be seen as feminist ideology and would be rejected out of hand.

Since I think the way to win is to get the "non-feminists" onboard, then I think "gender is a social construct" is a niche argument that should be used sparingly (for relevant niches).

ALunerExplorer · 26/01/2018 10:56

I will just (again) gently point out that 'gender critical' feminism is neither the only feminist theory out there, nor is it the only feminist theory to critique gender. Just because you believe you are right, it does not make it so.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 26/01/2018 12:15

I will just (again) gently point out that 'gender critical' feminism is neither the only feminist theory out there, nor is it the only feminist theory to critique gender. Just because you believe you are right, it does not make it so

Likewise.

But at least gender critical feminism understands biology and makes logical sense.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 12:17

I'll gently add that it's not gendercritical feminists who're trying to get women thrown out of political parties for wrongthink.

Justabunchofcunts · 26/01/2018 12:19

Yes I think we can all agree that people have different opinions on this. And that that's OK.

What isn't OK is shutting down debate about the different opinions, and the real world policy impacts of decisions taken.

Justabunchofcunts · 26/01/2018 12:24

So for example, these statements would be unacceptable:

TERFS! TERFS! Quickly, beat them up so they are put off organising politically.

Transwomen! Quickly, beat them up so they are put off organising politically.

However the following should be acceptable:

I believe transwomen are women because x
I believe you can't be a woman if you have a penis because y...

EmyRoo · 26/01/2018 12:25

So what would be the crux of the argument in other contexts nauticant?

Not being facetious, genuinely trying to understand because I hadn’t considered myself niche before. I thought it was fairly well common sense that if you reject gender stereotypes, that is fine and it doesn’t make you the opposite sex (or opposite gender).

EmyRoo · 26/01/2018 12:26

I mean the crux of the argument from a GC point of view

HemlockSpartacus · 26/01/2018 12:33

ALuner If you think that bad people agreeing with us on one point makes that point suddenly moot, then I'm looking forward to you dropping your agreement with trans activists due to how many of them have advocated violence against women?

Or does this argument only work one way for you?

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2018 12:38

I don't self identify as a feminist, let alone a gender critical one tbh.

Other people might label me as such, but I just see all of this about bloody safeguarding and issues relating to biology.

I've got to where I am with the feminist stuff through listening to ideological crap and bad science surrounding childbirth which isn't repeated elsewhere in healthcare and through my own direct experience of trans issues.

I have never set out to do anything resembling feminist theory. I'm well read, but never remotely been interested in reading feminist literature.

I just have an intense dislike for bullshit and anyone who sets out to muck spread with it.

I have much more of an interest in media and politics as a whole, but the last 18months has been an utter car crash in respect of rights, and I'm sick of hearing the same stuff about how rights are going to be improved because of x, y or z and its complete nonsense coming from people who don't have a fucking clue about why existing rights were created in the first place. And unless you understand that, then you are playing a very dangerous game.

I'm sick of both the left and right exploiting the entire subject, whilst simultaneously missing the bloody point.

Tomorrow is world holocaust day. I've recently visited a memorial where half of it is boarded up and its in disrepair. I read this week about how a former Concentration Camp is being used as the political HQ for the ruling party in Serbia, instead of being converted to a memorial as previously had been agreed.

'Progressive' is a term that's relative. It depends on where in history you stand. People focus on this, rather than on the underlying reasons of why the concept of human rights were created.

The TRA movement is just part of a bigger picture which requires people to get back to the very basics of rights. Not a rewriting of them, but an re-understanding of them.

It scares the shit out of me.

LangCleg · 26/01/2018 12:47

I just see all of this about bloody safeguarding

I do identify as a feminist but this is the thing that really flabbers my gast. We are chucking decades upon decades of policy and research and understanding about safeguarding under the bus for a quasi religious cult.

Somehow, I'm sure an argument could be formulated that would actually penetrate people's understanding.

Safeguarding, safeguarding, safeguarding. It's about safeguarding.