Women come last in Labour's deranged victim hierarchy - Rod Liddle in The Spectator

[AttillaThePun]

No punches pulled (but no names named either, probably sensible):

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/women-come-last-in-labours-deranged-victim-hierarchy/

sure. I do agree with that Kiss, just not sure how such allying works in practice. And it was remarkably balanced for wee Rod. Certainly the readers of the Spectator agree with him. Now to get anyone at all on the left in journalism to speak out.

Wow! I really liked that. I’m astounded that I did.
I’m very left wing (though not a Labour Party supporter) and hate the “that’s what you deserve for being liberal” argument but actually feel he doesn’t really go there too much. It’s sensible and readable and a good article.

Even though, being Rod Liddle, he has to have a bit of a sneer at the left and at feminists, the crucial thing for me is that he has actually understood what the debate is about in a way that few other journalists have done. He's grasped the legal issue about the change to shortlists, for example. He seems to have quoted the women fairly.

I also think it's brilliant that he mentions Zoe Kemp's comparison with the Paedophile Information Exchange, which a lot of us have brought up every time Owen Jones starts his tedious moralising about being on the wrong side of history. I'd like to think that even in Jones's self-satisfied mind, there might be a little glimmer of horror as it slowly dawns on him that, far from being on the right side of history, in a few years' time he will have to apologise for his association with something so fundamentally wrongheaded and dangerous as the current transactivism movement.

Great article. Shared on FB etc...

We have a piece also in Conservative Woman. Waiting for the drop.

yy Mentioning the PIE is a good move. Many times Labour has done this kind of thing and been on the wrong side of truth. They need to stop virtue signalling and start listening.

Regarding PIE.

The worse thing the GC side could do is feel obliged to formulate a position that leaves clear blue water between themselves and all of the people like Rod Liddle. Not only would it make the position incomprehensible, but it would result in continual "but what about this right wing person, where's your position to distinguish yourselves from them as well?" questions.

Better to say: "I couldn't give a shit about Rod Liddle's views on X. My position is about self-ID and he's coming out with sense there." Then repeated ad nauseum as a response to every other whataboutery question.

Isn't he a misogynistic, homophobic racist?

How is it helpful to have people like this "on our side"? It will simply reassure loads of lefties and feminists that they are right.

As anonymice says, many women find themselves agreeing with people who they disagree with on anything else. It's extremely uncomfortable. However, the reasons are different. The reasons right wing people and feminists oppose the thrust of trans ideology are different, and in fact what we actually want is different. We want to get rid of gender, allow everyone to be and present how they feel, while not moving away from sex as a basic (the basic for all time and for all animals!) categorisation, upon which we have fought so hard to get laws and protections. The right wing people want to keep everyone strictly in their gender boxes according to their sex.

No I can't get excited about this. He's laughing watching the left tie itself up in knots.

And it is cross political but as a women's issue. Women from all parties need to get together and act.

Misogynist men - not so much.

I give up. 😔 Get press yourselves next time.

And we need to be clear about what it is we want.

What we want is for SEX to continue to be recognised - for cunty women and girls to have words to describe us as a group and for sex based exemptions / provisions / etc to continue, for prisons, sports etc to be separated on SEX and not invisible feelings in someone's head...

This has been discussed in USA radfem circles an awful lot.

You can all do what you like but for women who do NOT feel able to stand next to people whose views are totally incompatible then that is up to them.

I'm sorry to hear that KissMaCis. Like you I think the way to win the war would be to get this into the consciousness of average people (especially men) rather than to police the ideological purity of our own position.

I think the only people I would be concerned about an 'alliance' with are conservative religious types. From my experience in a conservative evangelical church they do believe in female natures and male natures. They believe that femininity and masculinity are biological in origin because of the will of God, and therefore can't be changed. They reject explanations that involve socialisation. Apart from the God ordained bit their views are similar to those of trans activists.

The alternative is not to have this reported on at all from the gender critical side. While Pink News cleans up. Because the Guardian is never going to touch it. Come on.

I'm sorry to hear that KissMaCis. Like you I think the way to win the war would be to get this into the consciousness of average people (especially men) rather than to police the ideological purity of our own position.

I agree. This issue will be won or lost on public perception and what politicians think the public want.

Just seen this was a thread I haven't posted on before - and read it properly.

My view is my own. Given that most people agree it shouldn't matter if there are reservations from others. I mean, do what you think.

I didn't mean to rain on your parade Kiss. I am really sorry. I would have no idea going about getting the mainstream press involved and I am glad this article has appeared. I was more musing out loud about how many extreme right wingers seem to think I will now agree with everything they say. It's how to bridge that gap I guess. I am grateful beyond words for all of you who did use press contacts and glad the Spectator ran this, just wary.

Quite Nauticant. I’m gobsmacked that getting this issue out there in a mainstream article is bad. Rod is not right. He’s a Blairite Who left the party over the antisemitism. It’s this tribalism bullshit that always destroys movements. Write a blog, but it’s not going to be read by many people, this is on every news stand in the country. This bickering is exactly why people ridicule us. Bloody women eh? 😔

Say what you like, he's quoted some actual women on this issue. Nobody else has given our viewpoint a platform at all.

The more everyone talks about this the better, in my view

I’m a Blairite also, so nice that you think we are right wing trash.

I thought it was great. Really grateful to Kiss for all her hard work on this. I don’t agree with a lot of what Rod Liddle says but that’s not the point - it gets a sensible point of view into the mainstream and there are plenty of people who would read that and think, bloody hell I never realised it was as bad as this. Great stuff.

I'm trying to log in to disqus to read the comments but the stupid thing will only let me log in with google or fb?

The more everyone talks about this the better, in my view

Exactly. It's patently ludicrous. People don't really get it. They are shocked when they realise what is being demanded. The more press it gets the better.