Labour against transphobia group - thread 2

[QuentinSummers]

Follow on from
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3144285-Labour-Against-Transphobia-Facebook-group?msgid=75082467#75082467

Debbie Hayton is fabulous, and perfectly qualified to speak about this. Why isn't she being given more of a platform? (Oh yeah - far too reasonable. Bring back the pitchforks and 'hate speech'.)

Hello, I’m new here. I decided not to post this on twitter. This young woman is the person who actually set up the spreadsheet, and seems a bit fragile. But it gives an insight into mindset of the (mostly) students behind the Labour Against Transphobia hitlist I believe the word Taliban means “students”. I’ve supported Corbyn throughout but I believe the influx of students when he became leader has brought into the Labour Party the culture of No Platforming which has been so strong. “Remember these fuckers aren’t worth a damn” That’s a step on the way to killing fields and death camps.

Awful. Whole sections of politics are being commandeered by teenagers with severe MH problems.

Oh god, that 'Block all TERFs, they only want to harass, not debate' comment, I mean... What the hell...? Do they genuinely believe this? We're the ones who are calling for debate.

If the Tories remain in power with no reasonable opposition, it will reach a point where it's not worth me living anymore.

As a disabled woman, the thing I find most terrifying, and most loathe TRAs for, is bringing down the political left.

People saying they won't vote Labour anymore is terrifying. I understand leaving the party and explaining why, but by refusing to vote for the "least worst" option you are centring the trans bullshit over and above other issues that affect women.

Or does 'asserting polite dissenting opinions' = harassment now? Oh wait, don't tell me, suspect I know the answer

'Terfs are posionous and don't want to debate!'

Isn't the TRA motto #nodebate#?

TheNerevarine
I think they do believe it.

A brocialist sent me a link to a website called something like "shit TERFs say". It was horrendous, full of cruel, threatening, abusive language, stuff about killing trans people etc. It was essentially the (supposed) TERF version of the TRA threats/abuse.

It sounded like it was (a) written by men, (b) written by unpleasant bullying people without a feminist bone in their body, and/or (c) completely made up - how TRAs think we must think like them or something.

But if the handmaidens and allies think that's what we're saying....

People saying they won't vote Labour anymore is terrifying. I understand leaving the party and explaining why, but by refusing to vote for the "least worst" option you are centring the trans bullshit over and above other issues that affect women.

I disagree. (I'm also disabled.) If we don't force this to the top of the agenda now, "women" won't mean anything much, ever again in the UK.

Have you got the link, MissMoneyPlant?

It sounded like it was (a) written by men, (b) written by unpleasant bullying people without a feminist bone in their body,

I think you've got it spot on with points a and b. There are genuinely awful people out there sadly. I think what most frustrates me is when genuine concern for the well being of dysphoric individuals is dressed up as transphobia. It's not transphobic to call for non-biased research into the long-term wellbeing of people who have transitioned and into the numbers who detransition, and to suggest that it is is enormously telling, imo.

I disagree. (I'm also disabled.) If we don't force this to the top of the agenda now, "women" won't mean anything much, ever again in the UK.

I haven't yet made up my mind, although I honestly cannot see how I can bring myself to vote for a party that intends to bring in self-ID. I'm not sure that a party that plans to erase women as a protected class -and the implications of that are huge - apparently on the basis that 'Probably nothing bad will happen so let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best', can ever be seen as the less-bad option. Where loopholes and weaknesses exist they will be taken advantage of.

But let's not forget this is a Tory policy too. I'm sure they're watching this shit fest with interest but there's no guarantee they won't have self-ID as a policy too.

Thank you for posting. I think there are some very disturbing questions about that group and what it is doing, why, and how it is going about it. I do think though we should be careful when talking about this to stick to facts, concerns and highlighting the problems, and avoid any personal comments or insults which just plays into the stereotypes. I understand people are angry. But the way forward is to find ways to open up the debate so the reasonable voices on both sides can find a way forward.

Battle axe I totally agree with this.

I disagree. (I'm also disabled.) If we don't force this to the top of the agenda now, "women" won't mean anything much, ever again in the UK.

Also disabled, also agree.

I'm not going to intentionally vote for any party that intends to fuck me over from any angle.

People saying they won't vote Labour anymore is terrifying. I understand leaving the party and explaining why, but by refusing to vote for the "least worst" option you are centring the trans bullshit over and above other issues that affect women.

This is the impossible corner these bastards have backed us into. 8 years into an austerity which women have borne 85% of. Barely any DV shelters left (regardless of whether they admit TIMs or not). Women re-abused in family court by their abusive partners because there's no legal aid any more. Creation of maternal poverty, leading to the highest removal of children into care. The list is endless.

And now we can't even vote for an anti-austerity party any more because it's determined to take away every single right women have ever won for themselves.

I feel as though rage just isn't enough.

Has anyone asked the muslim council of GB how they feel about this?

My DDs best friend is Muslim and cannot even come over to ours for a sleepover because I have a son....I cannot reconcile the islamic principle of dressing modestly and keeping yourself away from the leering of men can possibly be reconciled with the self ID transwomen - if boys are allowed into changing rooms on their own say so, boys with a fully functioning penis and who identify as lesbians to boot.....girls will no longer be allowed to attend co-ed schools. If single sex schools then fall, where will these young women go? DO trans rights trump religious rights, womens rights, lesbian rights - so again, a bloke (albeit in a dress) gets to stand at the top of the pile?

I have no idea how muslim groups feel about this issue but I suppose it could go two ways.

They buy lock stock and barrel into the trans women are women idea therefore they can ignore any conflict that would arise otherwise. Or they will just further limit female muslims ability to partake in life outside the home. I suspect it will be the latter.

Iran has the highest number of 'transwomen' in the world. Because gay men there have the choice of surgery, or being thrown off a high building.

and their women's football team is mostly transwomen. They keep winning too.
.

They buy lock stock and barrel into the trans women are women idea therefore they can ignore any conflict that would arise otherwise.

There is no way Muslims will be OK with TIMs with penises in women's private spaces. If they are unbothered by the trans agenda now, it is because they, like most people, assume that trans means someone who has had surgery. I agree that the most likely outcome of self-ID is that Muslim women will be further restricted in public life.

Being trans isn't a sin in a number of religions (because it hadn't been thought of at the time). Homosexuality is a sin in a number of religions.

Therefore in certain communities we see a big push to fit children who they see as gender non-conforming into the trans box rather than face even the merest hint that the child is just gender non-conforming and that's fine or that the child might even be gay and therefore sinful.

Huff link

Looks like the local mosque in this case would not allow this MTF transgender Muslim to pray with women. And this person had had surgery years before. Whether that was just this local mosque's policy or whether it is a nationwide Muslim Council of Britain policy, I don't know.

I must say I'd be hugely surprised if mosques in this country were in favour of self-identification of sex.

Why aren't the more muslims up in arms then? Are they afraid of a backlash?

I feel a bit sorry for her husband in that article - with her supposedly not telling him before they got married. You have got to wonder if there's a reason they've only seen each other twice since the wedding...

I assume the disabled people posting who are happy for the Tories to fuck over the benefits system aren't actually relying on it. Or the now nonexistant mental health system. Or concerned about being homeless.

Interesting, Popchyk. I know that Iran's promotion of transsexualism as a 'solution' to homosexuality was the result of a fatwa from the former Ayatollah, and that not all Muslim clerics agree with him.

In the US a trans-identified Muslim convert was accepted as a 'woman' at his mosque - until it emerged that he still had a dick. Then the shit hit the fan.

www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/transgender-woman-barred-from-tempe-mosque-unless-she-dresses-as-a-man-or-can-prove-shes-a-woman-7605136

It's hard to get a grasp on what actually went down, as the story only gives the TIM's version of events, but it seems that several women went to the mosque board and asked that he be barred from the women's section, and he was then asked to prove his anatomical status to the board. So he produced his 'gender' ID, and the mosque was like, 'No, we don't care about your "gender", we want to know if you have a dick.'

It was an interesting case of old skool patriarchy (people with vaginas must be kept away from people with penises, to ensure their purity) clashing with new skool patriarchy (people with penises should be able to go wherever they please, and people with vaginas are bigots if they complain).

Apparently the women who complained said that he made them 'uncomfortable', so I wonder if he was exhibiting creepy autogynephile behaviour. Also the mosque leader threatened to have a restraining order put on him, which makes me think he must have been really aggressive in his determination to keep accessing the women's section despite repeated requests not to. As with most trans news stories, you have to read between the lines, and of course I would dearly love to hear the women's side of this story.

I'd imagine Muslims won't be bothered much by this unless it has an impact in their community. Just like the population at large.