Labour against transphobia group - thread 2

[QuentinSummers]

Follow on from
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3144285-Labour-Against-Transphobia-Facebook-group?msgid=75082467#75082467

Good article by Karen 👍

I'm in full on Machiavellian mode at this point, honestly. We need to hold the line and prevent any further legal changes being pushed through, by any means necessary.

Well done Kiss. Getting it out there. Tory supporters need to realise this is being approved by their side too.

Kittens, there’s one in Contas News today. It’s actually really good. Hope the snowball effect is in full flow now.

conatusnews.com/women-transwomen-labour/

Good job! Hopefully at some point it will become self-sustaining and you can go back to bed with a cup of tea and some biscuits.

at this point I think it will take either a whole lot of people getting hurt or a crushing electoral defeat for Labour to backtrack.

They won't care about women getting hurt. Look at how the Guardian dismissed Cologne and how many leftists dismissed Rotherham. Maybe they would care about children, or be forced by public opinion to care. I think the possibility of an electoral defeat is the only thing that will make them pause for thought.

I think you may be right and it pisses me off.

It's pretty much impossible for the revised GRA Miller proposed to get through the Commons without Conservatives voting for it, right?

Incorrect.

It depends on what government policy is. They could still go ahead, and use the whip. That would get rid of some opposition, though I do still think there would be some opposition.

The thing is that Labour would vote with the government on this. That means they could easily have enough votes to pass it. The SNP, Greens and LDs are all also on board.

What you have to do is convince the government that the bill would damage their vote and/or that the issue is causing more political damage to Labour.

Atm, the Conservatives are desperate to get the vote of women and young people. In order to do this, they want to look more progressive, hence the GRA at face value seems to fit.

However if they think women will turn away from Labour in any great number over the issue, they WILL drop it like a hot potato.

As much as they want to look progressive, they also need to keep their core conservative voters and they are desperate for anything which will change the huge drift in woman in all age groups bar the over 65s to Labour.

Put simply if the GRA is unpopular with enough women then its too much of a risk to go ahead and there is more benefit in not doing so from a bare numbers game.

This relies on the whole issue reaching the public accurately and people waking up to the implications about how its not about discrimination to trans people, but protecting many of them and the most vulnerable groups in society who are not loud mouthed aggressive narcs.

Personally I think this is going to build and build as its not an issue in isolation, but one about the militancy of Momentum dominating Labour as a whole. As much as the Conservatives are hated there is a growing distrust of Labour. And there is also a growing sense of betrayal over Brexit.

Corbyn isn't as popular as Momentum think. Labour haven't made any significant polling gains since the election despite every fuck up May has made. And many were of the opinion that they 'lent their vote' to Labour to soften Brexit.

It depends what happens next, but there are signs Labour are arrogantly being complacent. Its a case still that many voters are regarding the next election as voting for the least worst option.

Do we know how many expulsions there have been yet?

Surely votes cannot be free if they are not secret (I mean that's one of the core democratic practices) and where there is an explicit threat of expulsion if one votes the wrong way.

@Red

Thanks for providing more detail about the process. Again, this makes me glad that articles are popping up in the conservative media. No, they're not going to frame things exactly how we'd like them to, but the goal here should be to cause a massive pushback from conservative women, and hopefully from conservative men worried about what this all means for their wives and daughters too.

Angry, at this moment in time, getting it to a conservative audience is arguably the priority despite what is going on with Jennifer James.

Everyone is convinced that Labour will win the next election. Thats not a given.

Getting it to a wider audience after that is needed, but if the GRA passes in this parliament, thats it. You can't use the law to find battles like James's.

Just got off the phone with my mum who is pretty deeply involved with Labour campaigning and she didn't have a clue about any of this, not the ramifications of self-ID, not the secret FB group or the suspension of party members.

I pointed her towards JJ on Twitter and towards the Mumsnet boards. waves

And I think this is part of the problem. People just don't know what's going on. Kiss, you are awesome. I thought that Conatus article was particularly good.

Yep. I'm full Machiavelli mode right now, we need to stop this shit by any means necessary. Right now the house is on fire and there's the distinct possibility that there's about to be a ton of gasoline dumped on it. Once we've dealt with that problem we can focus on how to file the insurance claims.

Fuck, just realised I didn't even mention the medicalisation of children when I spoke to her.

Getting it to a wider audience after that is needed, but if the GRA passes in this parliament, thats it. You can't use the law to find battles like James's.

Yes. I guess it's a good thing that Conservative Women are covering this then?

What are the chances of the govt kicking the GRA into the long grass? Because once self ID becomes law, then we've got no chance. We won't be able to put that genie back in the bottle.

at this moment in time, getting it to a conservative audience is arguably the priority despite what is going on with Jennifer James

I absolutely think this. At the very least, getting the Tories to kick this into the long grass semi-permanently will get us the rest of the parliament to get the word out to the general population. And it does seem to be working. That ministers are confirming in writing that they've dropped the recommendation from the Miller report to amend the EA's single sex provisions is a victory that we have not noticed enough.

while I'm glad the right wing media are picking it up, some of the language is making me wince - from RL ' people with penises and weighty scrotums who like to dress up as ladies', 'dimbos in dresses'. Many (most?) Transwomen are not involved in these campaigns and just want to get quietly on with their lives like the rest of us. When Liddle is pejorative about TW in this way he hurts them too.

To be clear, men wearing dresses is fine and should attract neither ridicule nor applause. It's what they're doing that's the problem, not what they're wearing while they do it.

Red has this absolutely right. This is why wider, sensible, open public debate is what is needed. This is our battle, the time to fight it is right now, with urgency.

**It's pretty much impossible for the revised GRA Miller proposed to get through the Commons without Conservatives voting for it, right?

Incorrect.

It depends on what government policy is. They could still go ahead, and use the whip. That would get rid of some opposition, though I do still think there would be some opposition.

The thing is that Labour would vote with the government on this. That means they could easily have enough votes to pass it. The SNP, Greens and LDs are all also on board.

What you have to do is convince the government that the bill would damage their vote and/or that the issue is causing more political damage to Labour.

Atm, the Conservatives are desperate to get the vote of women and young people. In order to do this, they want to look more progressive, hence the GRA at face value seems to fit.

However if they think women will turn away from Labour in any great number over the issue, they WILL drop it like a hot potato.

As much as they want to look progressive, they also need to keep their core conservative voters and they are desperate for anything which will change the huge drift in woman in all age groups bar the over 65s to Labour.

Put simply if the GRA is unpopular with enough women then its too much of a risk to go ahead and there is more benefit in not doing so from a bare numbers game.

This relies on the whole issue reaching the public accurately and people waking up to the implications about how its not about discrimination to trans people, but protecting many of them and the most vulnerable groups in society who are not loud mouthed aggressive narcs.**

Arggh why can't I get bolding right.

What are the chances of the govt kicking the GRA into the long grass? Because once self ID becomes law, then we've got no chance. We won't be able to put that genie back in the bottle

I suspect that Scotland should be the first battle-ground (so to speak).

I think the way the GRA will play out is that the Tories will reluctantly ditch it blaming divisive feminists, and the next Labour govt will bring it in.

Yup, so please please respond to the consultation

consult.gov.scot/family-law/review-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004/

The Conatus article is really good! Calm and measured, no trans-bashing, and presenting simple facts.

I liked these points in particular:

I don’t identify as a woman, but I know I am one. Part of my experience as a woman is being dismissed by men like MP Clive Lewis who cheerfully said ‘I’m happy to say I think any move to allow trans-women onto all-women shortlists has my full support.’ Seeing as the only threat to men is women identifying into golf clubs I think it’s fair to say he hasn’t got a horse in the race.

and

It is perhaps unlikely to cross the minds of those brought-up most of their lives with the privileges and unconscious advantages of being born biologically male that perhaps a post designed to support women who have been ground-down by the converse experience might not be for them.

and

From firsts in women’s sports to media, accolades and prizes previously reserved for women are increasingly offered to transwomen. I’ve yet to see a transman awarded ‘Man of the year’ by a major magazine or to front a ‘Fathers for Justice’ protest.

As Conatus News describe themselves as 'progressive activists', I wonder how this article will be received by the right-on lefty dudes? Can someone tweet it to Ralf Little and similar? (I don't do Twitter).

Well done Kiss (I'm assuming this is another one of your contacts?)

Contas nothing to do with me. Snowball effect is important. The more people talk, the more voices to the debate, the more press. All I want is a debate, so people fully understand Self ID and AGP. And why it’s unacceptable for AGP to be allowed in to biological and transexuals women’s protected spaces.