Letter from Irish feminists to British "Terfs"

[SoupyNorman]

Link here. All sorts of issues bound up in this, but it got a lot of traction on Irish Twitter last night.

One point it does make is that the equivalent of Gender Id has been the case in Ireland for a couple of years, and yet the sky hasn't fallen in for women. Is that the case? Can any one living in Ireland confirm that? I sort of think you're not comparing like with like when it comes to the trans community in Ireland and that in the U.K., but I'd be interested to hear other thoughts.

Interesting they don't mention the fact that certain areas are still sex segregated, such as prisons.

Not really knowledgeable on this.... the only difference I know is that Irish prisons keep people in the gender of their birth whereas in Britain one of the main points is to keep peisoners in the prisin for the 'gender' they identify with - even self identify with. Massive difference.

Exactly - huge difference.

Sorry for the typos

Ah, interesting on the prisons. How is that legal, given the self-id law in Ireland? Or is it just the case that the issue hasn't yet arisen?

No - it's an exception. Like the exceptiin in Britain that daughter's of titled folks can't inherit even after transitioning.

You can see where the priorities lie

Different laws in the UK and Ireland. Different protected characteristics too.

I'm trying to think how to word this, but in Belfast anyway, the feminism groups I've checked out have a TIM as a member who gravitates to anything that will give them publicity and a higher profile. So assuming that women are driving the policy might not be accurate there.

I haven't been aware of any issues in Ireland for women arising out of the Gender Id Act, I have to say.

Me either. Is it because the trans community is much smaller? Less beset by TRAs?

The entire population of Ireland is just over half the size of the population of London. It's smaller than the Scottish population.

It's an irrelevance.

Did you mean to come across as such an arsehole, Jigglytuff?

Hmm, abortion rights (or the lack thereof) in Ireland, anyone? Interesting that a group of men who feel like they're women have made greater strides in being taken seriously as the most oppressed group ever than all the women in Ireland who still can't access abortion.

(I know this looks superficially like "whataboutery", but in this instance I really don't think it is. This is a case where women, self-avowed feminists, are taking time out from doing real feminism in order to defend men).

Funny how certain male rights things are protected in these laws - like women not being able to id as men and become priests in Ireland or gain peerages in UK.

To be honest I did wonder why the talk was happening in Dublin, but this talk is organised by ONE woman

Got to love the sneery tone of that letter and the message that there are no terfs in Ireland (and the streets are paved with sparkly diamonds), and we don't need your Brit bigotry here

Also how would you know if there had been a spike in crime? They wouldn’t be able to record it as a crime by a trans person it would have to be from a woman.

I am astonished that they haven’t got bigger fish to fry! Where to even start with inequality in Ireland!?

I think there are also provisions in Ireland relating specifically to privacy and embarrassment, which go a long way towards protecting women from situations like the smear test example recently over here

While I support the opposition to the proposed changes to the GRA, I don't think it's helpful to campaign about a change to UK law in Ireland. Especially when it enables this response:

So tell us: what is it that you know of Irish feminism that you feel entitled and authorised to come here and lecture us on? Dublin has not been part of the UK since 1921, yet you originally described ‘We Need To Talk’ as a UK tour while still including Dublin on your list of venues. This gives us some idea of how little you know about Irish realities, north or south.

What's been coming repeatedly into my head for ages is "who is your audience and is your message suitable for that audience?"

Why am I an arsehole for pointing out that Ireland is a tiny country with a tiny population?

Ireland is a completely different place to the UK in terms of cultural mores. It's true that countries with self-ID often quoted by TRAs - Malta and Ireland - are extremely poor for women's rights generally and are not good examples to hold up.

It's also true that in every state in the US where self-ID has been brought in, there has been a corresponding uptick in sex assaults and voyeurism crimes.

Is it, LangCleg? Do you have any links for that? (The US states, I mean?)

Can I ask apart from abortion being illegal(which is the same in NI which is part of the UK) how is Ireland 'extremely poor' for women's rights?

I am astonished that they haven’t got bigger fish to fry! Where to even start with inequality in Ireland!?

Did you mean to come across as such an ignorant arse?

FYI Ireland does better on sex equality measures that the UK, has lower levels of domestic abuse (incl stalking, violence against women, murder of women by partners or exes) than the UK, has better female educational attainment than the UK, etc. Having lived and worked in both countries, I have found the UK to be more sexist than Ireland.

Abortion is the aberration that has taken so long to sort out because it involves a change to the constitution and therefore a referendum, but trust me, we've been working on it for years and the vote will happen in the next few months. That's where Irish feminists are concentrating their energy, not on transactivism.

FWIW, I don't agree at all with the cis-statements in the letter and I see why the GRA is so concerning to gender-critical UK feminists. But the letter is right about how Irish feminists are fed up with the imperialist arrogance of British feminists telling us how we're doing feminism all wrong, without the slightest understanding of how The culture and history of feminism in Ireland differs profoundly from that of the UK. That same imperialist attitude is evident in this thread. Enough.

I think Ireland is enormously different to the UK. And I'm a bit mystified why the 'tour' is going to Ireland at all, given it's a different country and all. I would also be pissed off if I were an Irish feminist

I completely agree MarDhea. I don't agree with the contents of that letter but slating Ireland when clearly you don't understand it all does nothing for your cause.