Break it down for me?

[TortiousTortoise]

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

Womans Place UK
womansplaceuk.org/grassroots-womens-pressure-forces-local-authorities-to-comply-with-the-law-over-sex-and-gender/

"Grassroots women’s pressure forces local authorities to comply with the law over sex and gender

Local councils around Britain have been forced to change legally inaccurate equalities information on their websites by women’s rights campaigners. Many authorities have been found to be in breach of the Equalities Act by stating that “gender” is a protected characteristic, as opposed to “sex,” and some authorities have listed the two terms interchangeably, which they have sought to rectify due to sustained campaigning.

Supported and encouraged by grassroots campaign group Women’s Place UK and others, women from across Britain are now writing to their local councils to ensure that they have the correct list of nine protected characteristics.

Clackmannanshire initially replied to queries by saying ‘Hi, we talk about gender discrimination rather then sex discrimination as it’s more inclusive.”

twitter.com/ClacksCouncil/status/1005104288253861892

But after being challenged by campaigners have corrected their guidance

twitter.com/ClacksCouncil/status/1006109396491960321

Derbyshire County Council were also initially defiant in the incorrect use of their terms

twitter.com/Derbyshirecc/status/1006103009695293440

but after lots of women contacted them to challenge this position they agreed to change the wording

twitter.com/Derbyshirecc/status/1007226036667473920

Some of the other councils who have corrected their guidance after lobbying by campaigners are Nottinghamshire, Stockport, West Oxfordshire, Wigan, Bournemouth, Salford, Winchester, Manchester City, Luton, Lambeth and Kensington & Chelsea, Pembrokeshire, Wrexham and Rhondda Cynon Taff.

The Welsh Government has also made the changes after being contacted by campaigners.

Women across the UK will continue to challenge councils and other organisations who are getting equality law wrong.

The 9 protected characteristics are

Age
Disability
Gender reassignment
Marriage & civil partnership
Pregnancy & Maternity
Race
Religion or belief
Sex
Sexual orientation
A WPUK spokeswoman said, “So far we have found many policies that fail to comply with the Equality Act 2010 and ignore that sex should be protected by equality law. The reason we feel strongly about this is that it particularly impacts on the perception of what legal protections women have and the extent of the duties organisations have towards women. Some organisations are implying they will protect the concept of gender which most feminists think is a stereotypical notion of what being a woman is. The Equality Act protects those undergoing gender reassignment but this is a different category than that of sex.”

Whilst doing the audit of public sector equality policies WPUK found that the Equality and Human Rights Commission utilise the term sex/gender interchangeably which WPUK said, “This is worrying in that they make the climate for other organisations to follow and if they do not understand the importance of ‘sex’ as a protected characteristic how can others?”

Other organisations have acknowledged and apologised for their error and have begun changing their policies. Woman’s Place UK said “We are pleased by those organisations being willing to change. We hope this starts a national discussion about why the Equality Act 2010 exists and the importance of ‘sex’ as a protected characteristic. Women still have a long way to go before we have equal rights”.

#sexmatters

#sexnotgender

Current thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3290772-Reality-check?

OP comment:
"It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub"

The Government announced the beginning of the GRA consulation today and on Radio 4's Today program Penny Mordant MP (Women's & Equalities' minister) was clear that they were keen to hear all views. That women's concerns about the potential impact on single sex services and spaces etc were legitimate and would be heard.

Fairplay for Women press release:
(extract)
"Fair Play for Women says that codifying self-ID of sex into law will mean that the protected characteristic of ‘sex’ will effectively change to ‘gender identity’ meaning biological females will lose their existing legal protections.
This could signal the end of single-sex spaces for women and would be the biggest roll back of sex-based rights for a generation.

Nicola Williams, spokeswoman for Fair Play For Women said:

“If anyone can legally become a woman just by saying so, the word “woman” becomes meaningless and laws put in place to protect women and women-only spaces are made pointless. Unless women speak up and ministers listen, we are facing the biggest setback for women’s rights in a generation.”

Despite lobbying from groups like Stonewall, Ministers have said they will not change the Equality Act, which allows for women-only services, spaces and sporting contests.

But FPFW said the Government needs to go further and ensure that the Equality Act can actually be used to provide those services.

Many service providers are abandoning women-only spaces and services and adopting “gender-neutral” facilities after being advised by lobbying organisations such as Stonewall that providing services only for biological women is legally risky.

In fact, the Equality Act clearly allows such single-sex services. Stonewall, at the same time as advising many organisations on how to implement the Equality Act, has been lobbying Government to get rid of the Equality Act provisions allowing single-sex exemptions.

Nicola Williams, spokeswoman for Fair Play For Women said:

“Parliament has passed laws allowing for single-sex spaces and services for women and it’s good that the Government has rejected lobbying to get rid of those laws. Now politicians need to uphold the laws they passed by giving service providers a clear message that they can use the law to maintain women-only services and spaces.” (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3295108-Fairplay-for-Women-Press-release-re-Govt-Consultation-on-GRA-being-announced-tomorrow

Janice Turner's article in the Times discussed in thread below:
(extract)

"Much has changed since Maria Miller’s blithe 2016 trans rights report recommended sweeping, contentious changes including expedited hormone treatment for children and removing gender from official government records. Most controversially she sought to replace the GRC process whereby a person must live in their new gender for two years and have a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” (a mental disorder whereby a person feels their identity is opposed to their biological sex). Instead Mrs Miller proposed “self-identify”, ie a man could simply declare himself a woman with no requirement to transition physically.

The report caused a furore. Without hearing evidence from a single women’s group, Mrs Miller also proposed abolishing exemptions to the 2010 Equality Act which allow domestic violence refuges or hostels to admit only biological women. Interviewing Mrs Miller last year, I was flabbergasted by how little she had thought this through. She saw no conflict of rights at all: women, she said, must learn to accept without challenge male-bodied people using their changing rooms.

New feminist groups, including A Woman’s Place, sprang up in alarm. Despite picketed meetings, a violent assault and a bomb threat, they’ve shifted the public consensus to the view that liberating trans people from discrimination and abuse should not remove protections from another vulnerable group: women

Unsurprisingly, Penny Mordaunt, women and equalities minister, is proceeding with caution. She has stated she will not touch the single sex exemptions and is yet to be convinced about “self-ID”. The consultation will address how the GRC process can be “less bureaucratic and intrusive”.

Yet a GRC is a serious undertaking: it allows a person to change the biological sex on their birth certificate, a document of public record. A person’s identity is then sealed, only to be opened in circumstances such as criminal investigation: there is no way of proving someone is not the sex they claim to be. Only 5,000 GRCs have been issued to date. But if this process is made easier, with no careful checks for sincerity, the Equality Act exemptions are rendered almost meaningless." (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3292661-Does-the-government-consultation-re-changes-to-the-GRA-start-this-week-Janice-Turner-thinks-so

Thanks for updating this R0wan

WPUK Press release:
(extract)
"WPUK spokeswoman, Ruth Serwotka, said:“It is essential the government are reminded of the need to protect the rights of women and girls. All services could be impacted by these proposed changes including hospital wards, retail changing rooms, separate toilet facilities and women’s sports. It is time that the needs of women were given proper consideration instead of being over looked.”

womansplaceuk.org/press-release-gra-consultation/

to put it simply- transwomen are currently not allowed to access a female only space if any females in that space object.

But the upcoming GRA wants to change that. Which means transwomen will be able to use our spaces if we like it or not.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1014058200507838464
(tweet)
'Listen to @AskNic explaining on @BBCr4today why self-ID puts women's existing sex-based rights at risk. "If anyone can be a woman just because they say so then 'woman' means nothing and we can't have women's rights" Starts here www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b85m5n#play at 7.09'

I think today's thread on defining the word woman could be interesting reading:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296479-Alternative-Definitions-of-Woman?pg=1

This discussion is so post-modern.

Clear explanation of the development of legislative changes with regards the GRA:

twitter.com/Danvers07943910/status/1014593708904329216

"The GRA 2004 was created on the back of a ruling in the European court of justice. That ruling was created on the belief that there were 5000 transsexuals in the U.K. With such a small number it was considered to be a compromise that wouldn’t affect the wider public... (continues)

Full text here:
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1014593708904329216.html

www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/29/transgender-identities-a-series-of-invited-essays

"This is the introduction to a two-week, ten-part series of essays on transgender identities.

FROM the transgender bathroom debate in America to the argument in Britain over who can stand for election on women-only shortlists, a row about transgender identities is generating more heat than light. On one hand are some transgender people and activists, who advocate for “gender self-identification”: the belief that the world should take at face value a person’s declaration of their own gender identity. On the other are people who assert the primacy of biological sex; who fear the erosion of protections for women, including from male violence; or who see gender as a pernicious class system that maintains male supremacy and would like it done away entirely."

Will include contributions from Sarah Ditum, Kathleen Stock, Debbie Hayton, Kristina Harrison

Important threads with concerns of 'many Mumsnetters' , comments & questions for Penny Mordant MP, Minsster for Women & Equalities:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3297067-Mumsnet-moderation-response-to-yesterdays-feedback

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297184-Your-comments-for-Penny-Mordaunt

Current threads with important statements from transsexuals opposing TRAs and self id:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301971-Gender-Dysphoria-Is-A-Mental-Illness

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3305051-Have-any-of-you-seen-the-thread-by-AngryBird-on-Twitter

see also Rose of Dawn:
'The phrase 'truscum' is often used against transsexuals who disagree with the gender radical agenda. But what does it actually mean? I dispel some of the strange and slanderous accusations levelled at truscum such as myself.'
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=135&v=UCIQSEGJ66A

Here's what I don't get. "Believing in two 'genders is transphobic"... if there aren't just two genders why is it SO important that transwomen are women. Surely they can have their very own spot on the "gender spectrum" or whatever?

There's this mad twist to it all where the transgender people are saying they are smashing gender stereotypes whilst at the same time the whole thing relies absolutely on strict gender stereotypes! I'm new to all this but that's what is jumping out at me.

I don't think I believe in "gender" at all as it happens.

really useful article:
astroterf.wordpress.com/2018/07/16/the-cuckoo-in-the-lgbt-nest/

Bump.

Placemarking and bumping.

Transactivists, particularly students, see themselves as left of centre and liberal.

And yet, the ideology of gender shares notions with right-wing ultra conservatives: 'lady brains', how men and women dress and behave, their roles and so forth. The tactics of gender extremists aim to shut down debate, threaten and physically stop critics - tactics that we would associate with authoritarian figures: #no debate

I find it puzzling that so many young people and cheerleaders like Owen Jones (Guardian) sit comfortably with reactionary views and tactics. But there you go..... a mystery.

Article by Rebecca Reilly-Cooper

'Gender is not a spectrum
The idea that ‘gender is a spectrum’ is supposed to set us free. But it is both illogical and politically troubling'

(extract)
"What is gender? This is a question that cuts to the very heart of feminist theory and practice, and is pivotal to current debates in social justice activism about class, identity and privilege. In everyday conversation, the word ‘gender’ is a synonym for what would more accurately be referred to as ‘sex’. Perhaps due to a vague squeamishness about uttering a word that also describes sexual intercourse, the word ‘gender’ is now euphemistically used to refer to the biological fact of whether a person is female or male, saving us all the mild embarrassment of having to invoke, however indirectly, the bodily organs and processes that this bifurcation entails.

The word ‘gender’ originally had a purely grammatical meaning in languages that classify their nouns as masculine, feminine or neuter. But since at least the 1960s, the word has taken on another meaning, allowing us to make a distinction between sex and gender. For feminists, this distinction has been important, because it enables us to acknowledge that some of the differences between women and men are traceable to biology, while others have their roots in environment, culture, upbringing and education – what feminists call ‘gendered socialisation’.

At least, that is the role that the word gender traditionally performed in feminist theory. It used to be a basic, fundamental feminist idea that while sex referred to what is biological, and so perhaps in some sense ‘natural’, gender referred to what is socially constructed. On this view, which for simplicity we can call the radical feminist view, gender refers to the externally imposed set of norms that prescribe and proscribe desirable behaviour to individuals in accordance with morally arbitrary characteristics" (continues)

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Can I ask a quick question: the figure of 80-85% of transwomen who do not get bottom surgery, where does that figure come from? Is it UK only I assume?

There's quite a bit of referenced data here sanluca & some of it is international:

(extract)
"How many transgender people medically transition?
In 2011, GIRES estimated that only 20% of the UK transgender population are likely to seek medical treatment for their condition at some stage. Based on a UK trans prevalence of 1% and assuming a 50:50 split of males and females that means there are 200,000 male-born transgender people in the UK will no body modifications whatsoever. Of the 50,000 trans-identifying males that do seek medical treatment most of these would be expected to be undergoing hormone treatment and/or breast implants. Only a very small proportion of this 20% will be have genital reconstruction surgery."

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

See 1st paragraph: page 2:

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19292.pdf

Got it. Thanks!

The GIRES piece was interesting reading btw. Some parts seem to me to be very driven to hide being transgender instead of ensuring being transgender is not grounds for discriminiation. Is the hiding the drive for being seen as always having been the opposite sex? The whole TWAW? What would the reasoning be for that? It seems a bit to me like women who used to hide they were women to be able to be something only men were allowed to be. Which we have finally been able to do away with.

Damn, can't believe I missed this thread the first time around. Thank you everyone for your contributions to this incredible primer!

Bumping for any newbies.