Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Break it down for me?

1000 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
47
StevenTechMumsnet · 21/05/2021 22:22

Hi @Helleofabore It's like the scarlet pimpernel of threads :-) Yes, sorry I messed up my fix. I'll fix it properly overnight. The board is too busy right now. It should be OK tomorrow. Apologies for all this.

Helleofabore · 21/05/2021 22:27

I did get excited there for a moment Steven.. I am sure it is all connected but it wasn’t coming up on advanced search either this morning.

Good luck

StevenTechMumsnet · 22/05/2021 02:42

Hi, Just fyi, we're working on this.

LangClegsInSpace · 22/05/2021 14:42

Thank you!

Furries · 22/05/2021 15:27

Hi - I’m very new here. Have found my way here following a thread on AIBU a few days ago, which brought to my attention a whole host of issues about which I had no idea.

@Helleofabore and @stonecat guided me towards a couple of threads and this is one of them. I’ve read most of this thread, but I have not read all of the links included in it (which I think will take me ages, but I am going to read them).

I’m very keen to learn and understand more, but I also feel like I’m throwing myself down a bit of a rabbit hole at the moment. Equally, searching on google throws up so many options and I don’t want to waste time going in the wrong direction.

I’m willing to do my own research, but at this early stage would really appreciate some guidance/links to help me on my way. I think what I’m most interested in at the moment is where is best to look for what is current law and also is there somewhere to keep up to date with what is proposed law - both of these in relation to who can be legally classed as a woman (ie do they still have to have identified/lived as a female for 2 years, be medically certified etc). I’m probably not explaining myself very well, but am trying to understand the bare bones of what is allowed and therefore how easy it could potentially be for our spaces/rights to be taken over. I think it’s important for me to understand these “legal” basics to the fully understand the much wider-ranging impacts. The small rabbit hole I’ve been down over the last few days has been a bit overwhelming with regards to so many areas of impact. I’m not on twitter and avoid Facebook like the plague, so there are so many things I’ve missed re social commentary - some of the stuff I’ve seen via these threads is mind-boggling!

As a bit a background, this is really my first foray into feminism. I’ll be honest, I’ve not given it much thought (which sounds awful, sorry!). Thinking about it, it’s maybe because somewhere, right at the back of my mind, it’s been a very faint view that it’s all about hating men (yup, am realising the irony and how insidiously that very faint thought has been put there). I’m mid-40’s, single, have never wanted to be married right from a young age, no relationship with my father since early teens, always supported myself. The men I know are good, kind men. Those that aren’t don’t get the luxury of my time.

I’m not university educated and have not read any books on feminism (there were quite a few mentioned on another very recent thread). So I feel a bit out of my depth with regards to commenting on any other posts at the moment, because I don’t really know what I’m talking about. But I’ve been dipping my toe into reading some of them and am appreciating the measured things that I’m reading - there’s definitely been nothing that I see as hatred/bigotry/phobic. I’ve seen a lot of bravery in standing up for views which should be stood up for, but which seem to get labelled as phobic immediately. So I really want to learn more so that, eventually, I feel knowledgeable and safe enough to express them myself in real life - as that thought feels slightly scary at the moment. I’m not someone who likes confrontation and am generally someone who tries to see both sides and keep the peace (without being a pushover).

Slightly long-winded way of saying hi and looking forward to learning more.

Helleofabore · 22/05/2021 16:38

Sites like

fairplayforwomen.com/
sex-matters.org/

Might be a good place to start.

Justhadathought · 22/05/2021 16:40
  1. First of all you you need to be aware that even the concept of a trans individual is a construct, not a matter of material/biological fact. It is an ideology which seeks to offer an explanation for, as well as way of framing feelings of dysphoria, or of non -conformity.

  2. Contemporary transgenderism is a different beast to transsexualism, which is what most people think of when confronted by the word 'trans'. The 'trans umbrella' ( stonewall definition) includes a wide range of individuals and groups: including cross dressers, gender non conforming children, people suffering intense dysphoria, people who identify as non-binary...and so on........

  3. The push is for Self ID. This means you have to accept that someone is what they say they are. So if a fully male bodied person says he identifies as a woman, then that means he is a woman for all intents and purposes, and must therefore be given access to the services, spaces and sports set aside for women and girls.

  4. But even this is not enough for some activists. They want to eradicate the concept of sex entirely and replace it with gender. Sex and Gender have been conflated - but in fact are quite separate things. One is a biological fact; the other a set of social constructs and expectations which are placed on sex.

  5. If you accept the first premise of transgenderism: that people can be born in the wrong body, and that the only reality is the gender identity, then you also have to accept the notion of trans children. For many trans activists helping 'genuine' trans children to transition as early as possible is desirable - even if this leads down a path of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery.

For starters.......

LangClegsInSpace · 22/05/2021 17:31

There are two main relevant laws - the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the Equality Act 2010.

The GRA is the law that allows a person to change their legal sex.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/contents

Applicants need to 'live as' their chosen gender for 2 years (in practice this means things like changing name and sex on drivers licence, passport, household bills etc.). They also need two medical reports - one of which must include the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, the other must include details of any treatment (hormones, surgery). It is not a requirement to actually have any treatment, however if an applicant has not had genital surgery they must give a reason in their application. Any reason will do, including 'I don't feel it's right for me.'

The application forms and guidance docs on gov.uk are very useful for more info on exactly what's required:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificates-t455

www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/how-to-apply

There are a number of exceptions in the GRA where someone who has changed their legal sex will still be treated as their birth sex, for example hereditary peerages, parenthood and sports (where necessary for fair competition or safety). The GRA also allows for exceptions to be made in other legislation.

Section 22 makes it a criminal offence for someone to disclose the trans status of someone with a GRC, or who is applying for one, if that information was gained in an official capacity. There are a number of very tight exceptions, none of which relate to the safety or wellbeing of women or the protection of single sex spaces or services.

A couple of years ago there was a consultation in England and Wales on reforming the GRA to permit self-ID (just signing a piece of paper). The government decided not to make any changes in the end except to reduce the application fee from £140 to £5 and to work towards allowing people to apply online. GRA reform is a devolved matter and there was also a consultation in Scotland - I'm not sure where that one is up to (Scotland is a whole other can of worms in terms of legislation and activism!)

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004

The Equality Act protects everybody from discrimination based on 9 separate protected characteristics. The two most relevant are sex and gender reassignment, although the pcs of sexual orientation and religion or belief are also relevant.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

Sex is defined as a man or a woman and a woman is defined as a female of any age.

Gender reassignment has a very wooly definition that boils down to anybody who says they are trans has the pc.

The EA permits single sex spaces and services where this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, and also permits the exclusion of tw from women only spaces/services, even if they have a GRC.

The way the two laws interact is not 100% clear and there is some disagreement, also about how the EA should be interpreted. This page is a good summary of what the law says:

fairplayforwomen.com/legal-basics/

There was a recent inquiry into enforcing the equality act and the role of EHRC (equality and human rights commission). One of the recommendations was that in the absence of case law, EHRC should write a new statutory code of practice on the single sex exceptions and how they apply to people with the pc of gender reassignment. EHRC said they couldn't do that because there was no case law.

old.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/women-and-equalities-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/enforcing-the-equality-act-17-19/publications/

So changes to the way the law is interpreted, or even just some clarity, will need to come from individuals bringing discrimination cases. A good way to stay up to date with those is to keep an eye on this forum, there's usually a thread or several on upcoming cases and recent judgments.

stonecat · 22/05/2021 18:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Furries · 22/05/2021 22:00

Thanks all for the replies and the links, that gives me plenty of current info to get stuck in to.

LangClegsInSpace · 22/05/2021 22:54

Legal Feminist is good for commentary on current issues:

legalfeminist.org.uk/

LangClegsInSpace · 23/05/2021 01:05

As well as the protection of single sex spaces and services, there are also cases that focus on freedom of speech - look up Alison Bailey and Maya Forstater. Both of these are ongoing and have huge implications.

legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/15/do-right-fear-no-one-except-possibly-stonewall/

rozenberg.substack.com/p/can-you-believe-sex-is-immutable

There are also cases that focus on safeguarding, like Katie Alcock's current case against GirlGuiding and Sonia Appleby's case against GIDS.

www.womenarehuman.com/safeguarding-concerns-raised-at-nhs-gender-clinic/

There's a lot of overlap - safeguarding often requires single sex spaces and always requires protection for whistleblowers, our ability to speak plainly about all of this requires that our freedom of speech is protected - but these issues all fall under the broader category of human rights law.

We're awaiting judgment in the JR against the secretary of state for justice over prisons policy which encompasses single sex spaces, safeguarding and also, notably, article 3 of the human rights act, which states that no one shall be subject to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/judicial-review-campaign-update

LangClegsInSpace · 23/05/2021 01:08

All the cases mentioned above are current and all except the prisons case have fundraisers which I'm not allowed to link to, but which are easy to find.

Helleofabore · 24/05/2021 14:10

Just posting this "So What You're Saying Is..." video of an interview with Dr Kathleen Stock.

youtu.be/2cnUzmQ4VVI

It encapsulates the current position quite well I think.

Furries · 24/05/2021 20:52

Great, thanks for the additional info and video links - should keep me busy tomorrow.

Helleofabore · 25/05/2021 08:00

Just adding this piece about bone density for young transitioners here:

segm.org/the_effect_of_puberty_blockers_on_the_accrual_of_bone_mass

1st May 2021

Dr Michael Biggs (an advisor to SEGM) has been calling for the release of data from the Tavistock’s experiment since 2019. A subset of the data were finally released following the judicial review into puberty suppression at the Tavistock clinic. Biggs’ reanalysis has just been published in the Journal of Paediatric Endocrinology and Metabolism. It finds that after two years on GnRHa, the Z-scores for a significant minority of the children had declined to a level that should trigger clinical concern.

Sophoclesthefox · 25/05/2021 08:38

Unrolled thread from Ross Tucker about why the argument that some women are tall/muscular/fast does not address the unfairness in allowing transwomen to compete in women’s sports

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1277522426398674944.html

Helleofabore · 25/05/2021 14:45

Stonewall’s new vision needs to be posted here.

www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/a_vision_for_change.pdf

P 32. Includes their legislation and in it is this point.

“Judicial clarity of ‘sex by deception’ cases to define the legal position on what consistutes sex by deception based on gender, and to ensure trans people’s privacy is protected.”

When combined with the removal of ‘the spousal veto referred to in the previous point, they are basically very determined to give a group of people power over another person’s ability to consent.

Break it down for me?
Helleofabore · 29/05/2021 10:03

And here is an archived version of where Nancy Kelly Stonewall’s CEO

likened so-called "gender critical" beliefs to anti-Semitism.

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/2021.05.29-060217/www.bbc.com/news/uk-57281448" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">archive.is/2021.05.29-060217/www.bbc.com/news/uk-57281448

I have linked the archive in case the original changes or is deleted.

Leafstamp · 29/05/2021 13:40

Thanks Hellebore.

It is going to be very interesting to see what the next 280 posts on this thread will document. Sunlight seems to be getting brighter by the week.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 07/06/2021 13:46

And this stellar article from sex matters, summarising the conditions which lead to Stonewalls rise and how to dismantle and prevent this sort of ideological monopoly of large corporations from happening again. sex-matters.org/posts/updates/leaving-stonewall/

Helleofabore · 10/06/2021 13:49

Here is the link to Maya Forstater's case. One paragraph in particular is worth pulling out.

Contained in paragraph 32 'Not only is it worthy of respect, but it is also one that is consistent with the common law under which sex is regarded as binary and fixed at birth for the purposes of all legal provisions which make a distinction between men and women: see Corbett v Corbett [1971] P 83, Chief Constable of West Yorkshire v A (No.2) [2005] 1 AC 51 HL at [30]. The coming into force of s.9, GRA, under which a person with a Gender Recognition Certificate (“GRC”) “becomes for all purposes” the acquired gender, does not, as the Tribunal appears to have found, require the Claimant to disregard what she considers to be a material reality, namely that sex is immutable.'

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60c1cce1d3bf7f4bd9814e39/Maya_Forstater_v_CGD_Europe_and_others_UKEAT0105_20_JOJ.pdf

Helleofabore · 10/06/2021 16:34

Oxfam training guide blames ‘privileged white women’ over root causes of sexual violence

An Oxfam staff training document says “privileged white women” are supporting the root causes of sexual violence by wanting "bad men" imprisoned.
In the wake of sex scandals that have rocked the charity, Oxfam has produced guidance which states that: “Mainstream feminism centres on privileged white women and demands that ‘bad men’ be fired or imprisoned”.

Link to the archived version

archive.li/itpqA

Helleofabore · 12/06/2021 14:29

A new video from State Media:

We explain what's REALLY meant by gender identity, and ask whether you want to live in a society based on sex, or one based on 'gender identity'?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.