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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Break it down for me?

1000 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
47
WagnersFourthSymphony · 21/10/2020 22:44

I mean, if you aren't actually an adult human female?

DickKerrLadies · 21/10/2020 22:47

What does "going around being a woman" involve?

What does it mean to identify as a woman?

Those are the things I do not understand. I do not know in what ways I go around being a woman or identify as a woman in ways that do not involve my female biology.

I disagree that anyone who wants to be a woman is a woman.

jj1968 · 21/10/2020 22:57

Well it's a quote from MacKinnon, but I think it's pretty self explanatory. Obviously theoretically you can pick holes but in the actual practical world I think every is aware of and can recognise what living as a woman or going around as a woman means. How many people on a busy High Street really have a gender presentation that is completely ambiguous?

HecatesCats · 21/10/2020 23:00

I think it's pretty self explanatory

I don't think it is, please elaborate what identifying as a woman means? How does it feel, what does it look like?

334bu · 21/10/2020 23:01

So is a transwoman who has had no reassignment surgery and still sports a beard going around like a woman?
How do you know you are going around like a woman if you don't have a female body?

WagnersFourthSymphony · 21/10/2020 23:10

@jj1968

Well it's a quote from MacKinnon, but I think it's pretty self explanatory. Obviously theoretically you can pick holes but in the actual practical world I think every is aware of and can recognise what living as a woman or going around as a woman means. How many people on a busy High Street really have a gender presentation that is completely ambiguous?
That really isn't good enough. I was tempted to make a sarcastic reply but I'll answer your rhetorical question by saying I don't know. I see people with female bodies and people with male bodies and whatever they are doing or wearing it's almost always possible to tell which is which.

If 'being a woman' amounts to a gender presentation - whatever that is, but it sounds like all those stereotypes - then perhaps I'm not a woman after all. And neither are a lot of people I see in our high street, nor are a lot of us posting on here.

jj1968 · 21/10/2020 23:18

I think being a woman, and the nature of what a woman is politically, socially and philosophically is a very complex discussion, too complex for this time of night. Second wave radical feminists spent a decade discussing it after all and then along came Butler and set the conversation off again.

334bu · 21/10/2020 23:20

Very simple really " being a woman '" is being an adult female with a female body and all the experiences which go with that.

jj1968 · 21/10/2020 23:22

@334bu

Very simple really " being a woman '" is being an adult female with a female body and all the experiences which go with that.
You don't think there is a social and political dimension?
InflamatoryWrit · 21/10/2020 23:28

The thing is, it doesn't matter what the politics are, or what the social or philosophical make-up is, being a woman is biological. So there are Tory women and Lib Dem women and Labour women, etc. They are all of the class of humans with large gametes.

Whatever social background, if they have large gametes they are women. Whichever philosophical slant-- still women. Does not alter. Not complex. Night or day.

And Butler can fuck off, actually.

334bu · 21/10/2020 23:29

Sure there is a social and political element to why baby girls in India are aborted or left to die. However, the reason they are not allowed to live is because they have female bodies.

HecatesCats · 21/10/2020 23:30

@jj1968

I think being a woman, and the nature of what a woman is politically, socially and philosophically is a very complex discussion, too complex for this time of night. Second wave radical feminists spent a decade discussing it after all and then along came Butler and set the conversation off again.
You never answer do you
ALittleBitofVitriol · 21/10/2020 23:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

334bu · 21/10/2020 23:50

Good night.

moptophairshop · 22/10/2020 07:18

I only came to this board a few months ago and when I first posted was quickly pointed to this thread. It has hands down been the most important, valuable and informative thread I have seen. I still come back to it every now and then as there are so many links and articles. For any newcomers, this is definitely the place to start.

A pattern I've seen repeatedly on this board however is the derailing and dogged determination to obliterate certain threads of significance. So many valuable discussions about shared experiences, mental health, people appointed in particular roles that have an adverse effect on women... the list goes on. It's obvious, it's sad to see and it only confirms those fears about the silencing of women.

I remember the first time I saw someone suggest an article was archived and naively thought that was a bit extreme. Now it's clear that archiving is essential if we don't want our voices, our research and our experiences erased.

NeurotrashWarrior · 22/10/2020 07:44

It's quite clear how much the individual described by the brave transwidow here hates women.

It's clear they had no interest in transition when younger.

I don't usually do trigger warnings but I had to stop halfway through this.

R0wantrees · 22/10/2020 07:52

Recent Filia podcast, interview by Spokeswoman Raquel Rosario Sánchez:

'Dr Nicola Williams: Fair Play for Women - why sex-based policies matter for women's sport'
(extract)
"Fair Play for Women Guiding Principles

  1. Biological sex exists, and in certain situations it is vitally important – objective truths are not bigoted or transphobic.

  2. Sexism exists, it is endemic, and women and girls face structural inequality, male physical and sexual violence, harassment, reproductive injustice, unequal pay and so on precisely because they are members of the female sex.

  3. Gender (or culturally determined roles, beliefs, and stereotypes) is neither natural nor innate but a socially constructed hierarchy borne of the dominant order that varies over time and between cultures; it is harmful to men and boys, but oppressive to women and girls. Sex and gender are not the same and must not be conflated.

  4. Women and girls have a right to terms that are necessarily exclusive so that they can accurately name themselves and the injustice they suffer; a right to organise as a sex to address this injustice; and a right, in a democracy, to laws (and discussion of those laws) that protect them as a sex from this injustice.

  5. Whilst we oppose all forms of bigotry and discrimination, trans rights do not exist in isolation and they must not come at the expense of another extremely vulnerable and disadvantaged group: women and girls.

FiLiA Spokeswoman Raquel Rosario Sánchez spoke with Dr Nicola Williams, the Director of Fair Play for Women. Dr Williams is a research scientist specialising in human biology. She has held a number of senior scientific positions within the pharmaceutical industry. She is now dedicated to her full-time voluntary role as campaign director and public spokeswoman for Fair Play for Women.

Dr Williams has an excellent working knowledge of the laws designed to protect women and the transgender community. As a professional scientist, she also offers a critical and informed view of current research necessary for evidence-based policy development." (continues)

filia.org.uk/podcasts/2020/10/19/dr-nicola-williams-fair-play-for-women-why-sex-based-policies-matter-for-womens-sport

R0wantrees · 22/10/2020 08:11

Important article in 'Archives of Sexual Behaviour' critiquing Turban et al's paper on conversion therapy:

Published: 21 October 2020
'One Size Does Not Fit All: In Support of Psychotherapy for Gender Dysphoria'
by Roberto D’Angelo, Ema Syrulnik, Sasha Ayad, Lisa Marchiano, Dianna Theadora Kenny & Patrick Clarke

(extract)
"Turban, Beckwith, Reisner, and Keuroghlian (2020) published a study in which they set out to examine the effects of gender identity conversion on the mental health of transgender-identifying individuals. Using the data from the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey (USTS) (James et al., 2016), they found that survey participants who responded affirmatively to the survey question, “Did any professional (such as a psychologist, counselor, religious advisor) try to make you identify only with your sex assigned at birth (in other words, try to stop you being trans)?” reported poorer mental health than those who responded negatively to the question. From this, Turban et al. concluded that gender identity conversion efforts (GICE) are detrimental to mental health and should be avoided in children, adolescents, and adults. The study’s conclusions were widely publicized by mass media outlets to advocate for legislative bans on GICE, with the study authors endorsing these calls (Bever, 2019; Fitzsimons, 2019; Turban & Keuroghlian, 2019).

We agree with Turban et al.’s (2020) position that therapies using coercive tactics to force a change in gender identity have no place in health care. We do, however, take issue with their problematic analysis and their flawed conclusions, which they use to justify the misguided notion that anything other than “affirmative” psychotherapy for gender dysphoria (GD) is harmful and should be banned. Their analysis is compromised by serious methodological flaws, including the use of a biased data sample, reliance on survey questions with poor validity, and the omission of a key control variable, namely subjects’ baseline mental health status. Further, their conclusions are not supported by their own analysis. While they claim to have found evidence that GICE is associated with psychological distress, what they actually found was that those recalling GICE were more likely to be suffering from serious mental illness. Further, Turban et al.’s choice to interpret the said association as evidence of harms of GICE disregards the fact that neither the presence nor the direction of causation can be discerned from this study due to its cross-sectional design. In fact, an alternative explanation for the found association—that individuals with poor underlying mental health were less likely to be affirmed by their therapist as transgender—is just as likely, based on the data presented.

Arguably, even more problematic than the flawed analysis itself is the simplistic “affirmation” versus “conversion” binary, which permeates Turban et al.’s (2020) narrative and establishes the foundation for their analysis and conclusions" (continues)

In the ensuing months, as we observed Turban et al.’s unsupported claims of the harms of psychotherapy for GD taking root globally (United Nations, 2020), we felt compelled to write a more detailed critique of the study, which we present here. Our aim is to put the spotlight on the more problematic areas of Turban et al.’s analysis and to illustrate how heeding their recommendations will limit access to ethical psychotherapy for individuals suffering from GD, further disadvantaging this already highly vulnerable population. (continues)

concludes:
We believe that exploratory psychotherapy that is neither “affirmation” nor “conversion” should be the first-line treatment for all young people with GD, potentially reducing the need for invasive and irreversible medical procedures. This is especially critical now, when we are witnessing an exponential rise in the incidence of young people with GD who have diverse and complex mental health presentations and require careful assessment and treatment planning.

We are concerned about the deficit in our knowledge base about psychological interventions for GD, beyond a few successful but small case studies, and we fear that the erroneous conclusions presented by Turban et al. (2020) will make it less likely that such research will be carried out in the future. We call on the scientific community to resist the stigmatization of psychotherapy for GD and to support rigorous outcome research investigating the effectiveness of various psychological treatments aimed at ameliorating or resolving GD. The outcomes of psychotherapeutic treatments must be compared to those of biomedical interventions, so that evidence-based standards of care that allow patients and clinicians to make fully informed decisions about how best to alleviate GD can be developed and put into practice."

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-020-01844-2

R0wantrees · 22/10/2020 08:33

9th October 2020

Sydney Selwyn Winner
Speaker: Dr Sara Dahlen
Lecture title: 'An examination of sex versus gender identity in the GMC's Trans Healthcare Ethical Advice'

This is an excellent and very accessible summary of the reasons why sex must be retained on medical records in order to provide ethical and evidence-based healthcare. Many of the arguments and points will apply to other areas of public services such as Social Care

Star & thanks to Dr Sara Dahlen

R0wantrees · 22/10/2020 09:01

Woman's Place UK:
'A Woman's Place is in conversation: Sex in the census'
webinar 18th October 2020

'Alice Sullivan, Lisa Mackenzie, Jane Clare Jones and Selina Todd discuss the framing of the sex question in the next UK census.'

Professor Selina Todd (chair) introductory speech:
(extract)
The census which is due to be next taken in England and Wales next year and in Scotland in 2022 really matters to anybody who's concerned with women's rights.
Those of us who are concerned who argue for the need for women's history, women's services and just plain consideration of women are very used to reminding politicians, journalists and everyone else that we're half of the population we can only make this claim all claims such as for example that women have different and worse employment opportunities to men because we have robust ways of counting women and one of those in the uk is through the census the record of population that's taken every 10 years.

This afternoon we're going to hear from three experts about how vital this is. About why the ability to count women is now under threat and about what we can do about that" (continues)

Take action
Use our model letter to draft your own to your MP, Liz Truss and the ONS

womansplaceuk.org/2020/10/18/make-census-make-sense/

Women count, count women – WPUK blog on the battle to make the census make sense and why there is still work to do with links to articles and submissions etc womansplaceuk.org/2020/10/17/women-count-women-wpuk-census/

ONS statements on question development
www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/sexandgenderidentityquestiondevelopmentforcensus2021#questions-recommended-for-census-2021

Guidance for questions on sex, gender identity and sexual orientation for the 2019 Census Rehearsal for the 2021 Census www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/genderidentity/guidanceforquestionsonsexgenderidentityandsexualorientationforthe2019censusrehearsalforthe2021census

ONS ask for gender in their recruitment monitoring form: pbs.twimg.com/media/EETIp50WkAEgNEu?format=jpg&name=900×900

Articles on/by the panel
Sullivan, A. 2020. Sex and the census: why surveys should not conflate sex and gender identity. International Journal of Social Research Methodology, 23(5) 517-524 Preprint open access version: papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3557822

Alice Sullivan was ‘no-platformed’ at a national seminar Stonewall’s new boss Nancy Kelley let census expert be no-platformed 24th May 2020 www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stonewalls-new-boss-nancy-kelley-let-census-expert-be-no-platformed-ljsnw6v3r?fbclid=IwAR1O5iSpHMT_sK58dqCEVI3GKfW2UPeHKRwl5K2SAfXCa1FI4-0_CO6OAVk

Lisa Mackenzie’s presentation mbmpolicy.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/lisa-mackenzie-wpuk-census-webinar-181020.pdf

Murray Blackburn MacKenzie statement on Scotland’s 2021 census Murray Blackburn Mackenzie murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2019/09/09/mbm-statement-on-scotlands-2021-census/?fbclid=IwAR111ixn4ziWIJ0W8JFfbdeJrjR68oyf4h6dSwt1iSUjVOgR11q7OvdgZdk

Reform under the radar murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2020/05/07/reform-under-the-radar-lessons-for-scotland-from-the-development-of-gender-self-declaration-laws-in-europe/

Back under the radar MBM murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2020/09/24/back-under-the-radar-a-review-of-plans-for-the-census/?fbclid=IwAR1j3-IWx3Wz4k_miuXeI34IfXheapvkYMxe7lSSmCbFskbEKehe_BOIZQE

A tale of two letters MBM murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2020/02/24/a-tale-of-two-letters-whose-views-count/ " (continues)

further links to resources from the webinar:womansplaceuk.org/2020/10/19/links-from-wpukcensus-chat/

Times article by Mike Wade
Wednesday October 21 2020,

'Census sex policy ‘captured’ by trans activists'

(extract)
Trans rights campaigners “ideologically captured” statistics authorities in their efforts to change the sex question in the next census, an academic report has claimed.

A standard question about sex and gender had been changed after officials met “almost exclusively with groups claiming to represent the interest of the trans community”, the paper entitled Sex and the Census found.

The research, linked to a policy analysis collective which has extensively researched women’s sex-based rights and gender self-identification, focused on the Office for National Statistics (ONS) and the National Records of Scotland (NRS).

The report’s authors, Jane Clare Jones and Lisa Mackenzie, wrote: “NRS did not meet with any women’s groups during the question development period, despite the obvious interest that women have in a sex question that generates high quality data on the number of female citizens in Scotland.”

Acknowledging the invaluable data derived from the census since 1801, the authors stress any omissions or changes to the information collected is a matter of great public interest." (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/86a4259a-1315-11eb-9859-b09ba5b6a3c4?shareToken=fe420c8a185cb8f7c751402880080acd

R0wantrees · 22/10/2020 09:35

22/10/2020 The Critic article:
'Is the Women’s Equality Party really for women?
The WEP has been neutered by the same sexist stereotypes it claims to fight against'
by Jo Bartosch

(extract)
"Today many of those who once supported the party have been left disappointed. At their conference this weekend WEP opted to duck out of the feminist debate of our time; they declined to clarify who the party represents. It seems the “Women’s Equality Party” is unsure as to whether “women” refers to the sex class of adult human females or the nebulous notion of “gender identity” as favoured by transgender activists. In order to settle the somewhat archaic sounding “woman question”, WEP have been running a consultation, as their spokeswoman told me:

We are proud to be delivering an inclusive consultation with our members that gives us the best chance of finding common ground on a divisive issue. Our consultation includes a randomly selected assembly, just like the one that was used in Ireland on abortion rights, where members can listen, learn and build towards consensus. It’s one of the many ways in which the Women’s Equality Party is doing politics differently.

When one thinks beyond the buzz words, it suddenly seems quite ludicrous that a party established to advance the rights of women is unable to confidently define who is a woman. Indeed, when asked whether it is WEP policy that “trans women are women”, the WEP spokeswoman chose to ignore the question. Of course, this battle is one that rages throughout public life from policy makers to police forces, but notably it is those within the so-called “women’s sector” itself who are most coy about having the “sex talk”.

WEP’s consultation is in part a belated response to a row that erupted over the dismissal in 2018 of Dr Heather Brunskell Evans. After a three-hour meeting, followed by a three-month investigation, the esteemed feminist academic was booted from her elected position as WEP spokeswoman for policy on Violence Against Women and Girls. Her crime? She had appeared on the BBC’s Moral Maze where she expressed the view:

A genuinely progressive society would allow boys and girls to be whatever they want to be, so I am absolutely perfectly happy if boys want to wear dresses … but the problem comes when we decide that the child is genuinely internally … not a boy but a girl, and that is where we get into trouble. So, I don’t believe there is anything wrong with a boy’s body if he wants to wear a dress. (continues)

Belatedly reading the feminist runes, in 2018 Sophie Walker presented a motion calling for open discussion of the GRA. The following year Sophie Walker left to head the Young Women’s Trust. Mandu Reid, who took over WEP in 2019, has been equivocal on the need for women’s sex-based rights. After her election as leader in 2019 Mandu told PinkNews that “trans women are women… (b)ut they’re women among a rich tapestry of what it means to be a woman, of which we all are a part.” This is of course a half-arsed cliché; “woman” isn’t some metaphorical soft furnishing; it is simply a biological category of sex.

As discussed previously in The Critic, the idea that one’s internal sense of identity is more important than reality has permeated civil society, but one might expect that those who claim to represent women would understand why it is essential to see sex in order to combat sexism; without this most basic division we are fighting whilst blindfolded. But this is not the case, from the fusty and formidable Fawcett Society to earth mother ethos of Red Tent, women’s organisations have not only failed to condemn the harassment of those who stand-up for sex-based rights, they have at times actively promoted policies designed to change the definition of “women” to include men. Not one major women’s organisation spoke in support of survivor JK Rowling when she disclosed the abuse she had suffered in an attempt to explain why women’s sex-based rights mattered to her. It seems women’s sector organisations are not only excessively kind to men who claim to be women, they also police behaviour by leaving witches out for the mob as an example.

Politics isn’t about ‘being kind’, it’s about the application of power

Definitions are exclusionary; words exist to articulate difference. It is not cruel to say women are “adult human females” with specific needs, it is simply a fact. The role of gender, that is to say the social expectations imposed on women and men according to sex, is powerful. If evidence of this was ever needed it can be found in the response to women who opt to put their own interests as a group first" (continues)

thecritic.co.uk/is-the-womens-equality-party-really-for-women/

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 22/10/2020 09:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

R0wantrees · 22/10/2020 09:52

Dr Julia Long & Heather Peto debate:

'What is a Woman?'

The Institute of Art and Ideas August 2019

Datun · 22/10/2020 09:52

Brilliant resources R0. Thank you! That's my reading sorted.

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 22/10/2020 09:53

Thank you for finding the time to post all that, RO xx

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