Break it down for me?

[TortiousTortoise]

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

Bumping as this thread is so important to newcomers to the debate.

This should be pinned, really.

Just read this thread and lots of the links herein, having been signposted here from a thread which I started (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3386791-Political-apathist-horrified-by-guidance-for-schools-from-local-council-What-to-do?watched=1&msgid=81643843#81643843) having seen a post on facebook from my local council giving frankly horrifying advice to schools in our area.

Apparently boys are now girls if they say they are and will be allowed to access facilities intended for girls. Leaving how wrong that obviously is to one side for a moment, I am wondering if this is going to extend to biology lessons too? Will my children learn about xy / xx chromosomes, their respective reproductive systems and the ways their MALE and FEMALE bodies will change in puberty? Or will they instead learn that what makes a girl a girl is feeling like a girl?

I so resent being dragged into this debate, would much rather remain blissfully unaware of the ins and outs of politics but this is a step too far, I have been forced into caring.

The situation is pretty frustrating for women. We are being blocked from engaging in the democratic process. A meeting in Leeds was cancelled by the council at the last minute, and the government is refusing to meet with women's groups to discuss the issues.

To quote Dr Nic from Fair Play for Women:
Womans Place UK and Fair Play For Women have both requested to meet with Penny Mordaunt, Minister for Women and Equalities, to represent the concerns and questions of the thousands of women who support us, but have not been granted a meeting.

I have this thread open on my device all the time.
I read it when I can’t face the lunacy and madness of Trans activists any more.
I read it to re-read the links by posters
I read it to remind myself that there are women who think like me and I realise that I’m not alone
I read it to for Datun’s posts that explain this in words that I can understand.
Also Bump

Beautifully put, Prestons

We are at a stage, where it appears that even the government which has asked for a consultation cannot define the words man and woman adequately.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3389708-Definition-of-man-and-woman-used-in-the-GRA-consultation

And a museum dedicated to science and medicine has decided to name their event as being about womxn. I wish I were joking.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3386022-What-s-your-definition-of-womxn

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Important speech by Kathleen Stock at House of Lords yesterday which breaks down the fundamental issues with 'trans-rights' policy and legislation which has been framed solely around lobby groups and those with lived experience.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3391330-Prof-Kathleen-Stock-WPUK-speech-at-House-of-Lords-Important-disection-of-the-key-issues-for-MPs-policy-makers-etc-with-ref-to-The-Trans-Equality-Report

Jean Hatchet is a feminist who cycles in memory of murdered women. She raises money for women's refuges, but was accused of diverting the funds she has raised. This was an attack by trans activists to smear her, likely because Fair Play for Women had put a consciousness-raising advert out in the papers.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3391093-trans-attack-on-fund-for-refuges

AngryAttackKittens wrote a brilliant analogy on the thread linked above:

It's the equivalent to pushing a cake off the table and then stamping all over it, then pissing on it for good measure, just because nobody offered you a slice. Even though the cake was in someone else's house, that person had not invited you in, and the cake was made to celebrate the birthday of someone who you used to bully at primary school.

Jean Hatchet's latest blog post which collates negative experiences of women when males have been in the loos with them.
(extract)
"We have been told not to discuss loos. Especially women's loos. It is apparently the height of transphobia and fascism and we are immediately aligned with Donald Trump. Or some crazed religious right wing group who hate everyone. All of this is utter nonsense to stop us speaking about everyday concerns for women if men are allowed into our loos.

Here is a blog where women refuse to do what they have been told. They are discussing women's loos.

As part of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act 2004 which will allow for "self-identification of gender" women have many worries about how this will affect them. We are very concerned about what this will mean and it is this.

Any man who wants to call himself a woman can go online and fill in a form for a small fee and then he can change the "sex" on his birth certificate and "Hey Presto" he's a "woman".

Legally.

Women will have to let this new "woman" into our single sex spaces including women's refuges, rape crisis centres, single sex hospital wards, changing rooms, domestic violence help groups, and yes... our loos.

[S]He can retain [her] penis as 80% of trans women already do. [S]He needs to make no changes to [her]self or h[er] behaviour... AT ALL. [S]He doesn't need to wear a wig or a dress. [S]He doesn't need to shave or wear make-up. [S]He doesn't need to chop off h[er] testicles. [S]He doesn't need to speak with a high voice. [S]He can simply declare h[er]self a "woman". And [s]he's in.

Women don't need to do these things either. But we are already women.

However, the comments below also reflect women's concerns about "gender neutral" loos which are a resulting "compromise" to excluding trans women from women's loos. Which we have been told is unkind.

Well. Women are unhappy. Lots of women are unhappy about this and we are being made to feel guilty for talking about it at work, or in public or in restaurants and bars. But actually .... lots of women don't use a rape crisis centre or a refuge. But we all use loos. This is what I found when I asked women how they feel about men in their loos. Any men. This is not about trans women. It is about women's experiences of men. Of women's girlhoods. Of their need for the safety of a place where they take down their knickers and change their tampons and sanitary towels. Of the places women feel alone sometimes. Of the places where women attend to the functional biological needs of their female bodies.

Some of this may shock you. Some of it might make you laugh. Some of it will make you angry. If you are a woman ....you will nod your head a lot.

So here we are.... women talking about women's loos. And we are NOT ASHAMED...." (continues with quotes from women)

jeanhatchet.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-gentleman-in-ladies.html

**edited for current MN guidelines

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3391137-a-gentleman-in-the-ladies

James Kirkup's latest piece covers Karen White, the rapist and child abuser who was transferred to a women's prison and sexually assaulted four women. Kirkup also talks about Fair Play for Women, and their warnings about how self-ID would impact women's shelters. Fair Play for Women have produced a report on the subject:

<strong>“With self-ID policies we will effectively be giving the keys to women’s refuges to abusive men. If that happens, beyond a shadow of a doubt, women will die. Never ever underestimate the potential for abusive men to track down, find and torture their victim.”</strong>

Perhaps you think that’s hyperbolic or excessively dramatic. If so, consider again the case of Karen White.

In 2016, the Prison Service put in place a policy that was intended to make life easier for transwomen in custody. That policy meant Karen White, a rapist and child abuser, was able to gain access to vulnerable women and sexually assault them. In the words of the prosecution in White’s latest trial, White is a “predator” who sought to “use a transgender persona to put herself in contact with vulnerable persons she can then abuse.”

Those words were spoken in a trial that ended in Karen White being given a life sentence and the judge telling White: “You are a predator and highly manipulative and in my view you are a danger.”

The Karen White case came about even after MPs had been given clear warnings by several experts that dangerous and manipulative predators like Karen White would try to exploit gender laws and rules in order to abuse women. They failed to act on those warnings and properly scrutinise the rules involved in the Karen White case.

Now, that Fair Play for Women report about domestic violence shelters gives MPs and other people in power another chance to do better. They have been given a clear warning by the professionals who spend their every waking moment dealing with the harm done by abusive men and trying to protect women from abusive men, that such men will try to exploit laws on gender change to find, abuse and kill women.

What will it take to persuade them to listen to that warning this time?

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/the-cautionary-tale-of-karen-white/

Bump

Speeches by SwearyG, Jean Hatchet's representative, Anne Ruzylo, Dr Julia Long, Posie Parker and Venice Allan
28/9 Manchester 'We Need to Talk About Women'

For anyone feeling a bit down, Posie Parker has done something brilliant! Adult Human Female in lights all over London .
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3392696--adulthumanfemale-in-London

James Kirkup in the Spectator, on the inability for MPs to speak up. Instead - ordinary women and a handful of feminists, journalists, academics, activists, and others are shouldering the responsibility.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/even-our-mps-are-afraid-of-the-transgender-mob/

28 per cent of all MPs agree that people should be able to decide their own legal gender without the approval of a doctor; 50 per cent disagree.

59 per cent said that the rise in the number of children presenting as transgender ‘is a worrying development that has not been properly explained or discussed yet.’

67 per cent said ‘I am concerned that rules allowing men to self-identify as women and access women-only spaces like prisons and refuges could be exploited by abusive individuals.’

MPs are worried. But why haven’t they said so? Why does that ComRes survey constitute real news, filling in quite a large blank in our understanding? What I find most striking about the survey, is what MPs thought of this statement: ‘I feel I can speak freely on transgender issues without undue fear of social media attacks or being accused of transphobia.’

Only 33 per cent of MPs agreed. 54 per cent disagreed.

In other words, the majority of MPs do not feel that they can freely discuss an issue that concerns the welfare of children and the safety of vulnerable women.
That, I think, is about as profound and worrying an example of a chilling effect as I’ve encountered in a career writing about politics and policy. When MPs can’t talk about something important, something has gone very badly wrong.

Discussed on this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3395328-James-Kirkup-Coffee-House-Even-our-MPs-are-afraid-of-the-transgender-mob

Women's groups went to parliament to brief MPs on the concerns of ordinary women around sex self-ID. MPs reportedly elected to remain anonymous, so that they would not be targeted for harassment.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396641-MPs-scared-to-be-caught-in-same-place-as-gender-critical-feminists-Edited-by-MNHQ-at-OPs-request

David Davies, Conservative MP, has spoken out about being under investigation and a colleague threatened to call the police on him.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396459-David-Davies-MP-speaks-out-about-harrassment-calls-for-stop-to-GRA-reform-urgent-review-involving-womens-groups

Thank you for a most informative thread!!

It appears that the NHS has deliberately confused the public about sex and gender.

'Official Guidance issued to the NHS in 2009 confirmed that regardless of anatomy, legal status, or documentation, the self-declared gender identity of one patient would take precedence over the actual sex of all others in their shared ward. NHS rules state you do not need a gender recognition certificate. There is only one requirement. You must incant the words “I identify as …”'

Check out this thread, and the linked Medium article.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396859-Weve-been-lied-to-about-Single-SEX-wards-since-2010

I’m sorry I haven’t read full thread yet - will do - placemarking. I have just completed the consultation - it took me 5 hours after thinking about it and reading blogs and news and articles and twitter for a number of weeks. Don’t let that put you off. What I’m saying is that the process of engaging with the questions really helped me.

Bump

Bumping - please do the consultation.

Bump

So glad this has been bumped.
I hadn't got a bloody clue about anything and was afraid to ask.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. Emotions can run very high (I have become a little too angry for my own liking at times ), and I was SO nervous about posting here for the first time. But I've found most posters are VERY helpful. If sometimes it takes a little longer to warm up, it's because people may be trying to figure out whether you're writing in good faith and not trying to deliberately goad people or smear the forum.

I have just completed the consultation - it took me 5 hours after thinking about it and reading blogs and news and articles and twitter for a number of weeks.

Gosh. Bloody well done.