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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wrong side of history

514 replies

LyraPotter · 15/01/2018 16:35

Here is something I know to be true: those campaigning against trans rights will fail. Your money will be raised and spent and wasted. Your legal challenges will not succeed. Your relentless attempts to do injustice will fail. You are on the wrong side of history. Your children will grow up knowing better than you. You cannot stop progress. Your efforts are in vain.

And every time I'm proven right - every time a court judgment goes against you and every time a law protecting trans men and women is passed and every time equality is further enshrined in the laws of this country I am going to return to this thread for the pure and petty purpose of telling you I TOLD YOU SO.

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Desiderio · 15/01/2018 21:16

Firstly what does being on the wrong side of history mean? It all depends what point in history you stop time. The cayholic church and the Spanish inquisition was on the right side of history for 400 years. The theory of the sun going round the earth for longer and we still might at some point clip flop back to that belief in some future dark age after a collapse when weve lost out astronomical knowledge. Lobotomy was a wonderful cure all and on the right side of history for 40 odd years

The point is that popular opinion does not determine whether or not something is true, nor does the amount of time people believe an idea. So perhaps for the next 5, 50 or 500 years people will believe that men can be women by invoking the magic words 'i feel like a woman'. It may simply be the latest religious idea to take hold. So perhaps the world has moved on but it's foolish to think the world is on some progress escalator and that things always go forward rather than back. Look at gay right in Iran, (and the left wing supported the ayatollah's coup) or the women's rights in Afghanistan under the Taliban. There was a shift backwards for equality.

It's also a huge error to assume the left is always right. The left widely supported eugenics for decades up till the 40's when the final solution highlighted the horrendous endgame of that ideology. In the 70"s the left supported paedophiles and government money was given to the paedophile information exchange. They promoted their cause as child liberation and the rights for children to have sex and reducing the age of consent to 2 years old. It took someone time before people twigged it was more about the rights of 50 year old men to legally sexually abuse children. Sometimes there's a thing called being so open minded your brain falls out.

So I think what's important is to think for yourself and not be swayed by the tide of often quite asinine public opinion.To evaluate claims for their veracity and look at the potential consequences. And with trans activism what I see is this - women being threatened with violence for stating the evidence of their own senses rather than kowtowing to group pressure to allow others to dictate their reality. Women being silenced and shamed for stating that biological sex exists in humans and that humans like most mammals are a sexually dimorphic species. Women being co erced to allow males to go into their pants and spaces, threaten their safety and privacy and take political positions and spots on the sports podium set up for women.

In short an assault on hard won women's rights claiming to be under he guise of equality and progressiveness. Now of course you may wish to champion women's demise to impress your peers like that commanders wife in the handmaids tales did but personally I'd like to do whatever I can to fight this regressive, misogynistic religious movement whilst it's still possible without being sent to prison or to a re education centre.

If I fail and collective insanity wins out for a while lI'll know in good conscience I did all I could to resist. And if I succeed and women's rights are restored I'll be pleased a crisis was averted. But should the future you hope for prevail it will not make you right just as the reformation under Henry 8th wasn't proof that the church of England was the true church, it was rather proof that a rich, corrupt and powerful man had forced his will on the people through tyranny and fear.

If my worst case scenario does come to pass and women lose their rights then I won't need to crow and tell you I told you so. Your naivete and error of thinking will patently obvious as you'll be suffering the consequences of belief in your misguided ideology as will I. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen for both our sakes.

World. Has. Moved. On. Without. You. And no amount of £5 donations and online posturing on your part can turn back the wheels of progress. You've lost this battle and those of us who are progressive and open minded and who want nothing less than absolute equality for all are just waiting for you to realise it.

BeyondWW · 15/01/2018 21:16

Oh Lyra, I wish you had posted in Aibu Grin

SophoclesTheFox · 15/01/2018 21:20

Do you know how babies are made?

They spring fully-formed from the heads of bigots or something? To be filed under "boring biological TERFy mum stuff that awful cis- types never shut up about", anyway.

EamonnWright · 15/01/2018 21:21

They are using the term 'wrong side if history' like folk where on the wrong side of history regarding rights for Gay people.

There's zero comparison imo.

therealposieparker · 15/01/2018 21:24

What trans rights don't trans women have?

guardianfree · 15/01/2018 21:29

Posie, Maybe the right to ice a cake without Terfy Mumsnetter's upsetting their glorious sparkly unicorn world?

Desiderio · 15/01/2018 21:29

But actually what I really hope is that I am wrong and that women's rights will not be lost and that a compromise will be achieved between the two groups. I hope my concerns are unfounded.

But I'm looking at other movements in history and how demonisation of a group of people can go badly wrong very quickly. Before you know it you end up with scapegoats, ethnic cleansing and literal witchunts. Even animals aren't immune - there was decimation of the cat population of Europe during the medieval period as they were considered the devil's familiar and rats which carried the plague proliferated unchecked.

The language I'm seeing being used and the attitude invoked against women who refuse to deny biology is highly worrying. As they say they this acid test- swap the group name - in this case the slur terf, for Jew and see how it sounds. Kill all... Punch a ....., Die in a fire.....

Now tell me again how progressive does that sound?

overnightangel · 15/01/2018 21:30

@LyraPotter be you man woman trans or whatever, you come across as someone who has no social skills. Your posts are embarrassing

Xenophile · 15/01/2018 21:30

Maybe the wrong side of history thing could be used as a basis for some kind of folk dance? Possibly based on the Hokey Pokey.

overnightangel · 15/01/2018 21:31

I had to laugh at the fact you associate being progressive with acting like a prick.
How old are you out of interest?

MrsDoylesTeaBags · 15/01/2018 21:34

Women have always been on the wrong side of history. Within the span of human civilisations across the world, the window of time when women have had any substantial rights or autonomy is very, very small. For most of recorded history, women have been suppressed rather than respected by the law.

I agree that our extinguishment as a legally definable category of persons is very likely, and therefore that our right to organise and assemble without men, to define ourselves without reference to them, to have resources and spaces to ourselves, to even speak about our lives and bodies, could easily be wiped out. In 1989, 40 per cent of doctors in Afghanistan were women. By 1999, women in that country were not even permitted to access medical treatment, let alone work as doctors, and the Taliban were passing laws that forbad them from making noise with their feet while they walked. That's how quickly things can change for women. (And here's the thing: none of them could escape this by 'identifying' as something else.)

Yes, women's rights could easily be extinguished in the UK and other Western countries - they remain fragile and contingent, as they have been everywhere throughout human history.

@donkeyskin I bloody loved your post Star

Icantreachthepretzels · 15/01/2018 21:35

How old are you out of interest?

Old enough to be taking a very important flight (of fancy) all by themselves in the middle of the night.

SimonBridges · 15/01/2018 21:38

Here is the thing Lyra, I think it is fair to say that damn near most of us know an understand that trans women and are just people trying to get on with their lives just like we are. Some of us even count trans men and women amongst our friends and family. I think it is fair to say that the majority of women here are pro trans.
We just don't want our hard fought for rights to be taken out from under us. see your crusade set back another step Do you see, you want to stop women from having equal rights, not for trans people to have rights.

And if in your cosseted little world where everyone in your school had to bend to your will and start calling you Lyra rather than Luke you think that us worn out old mums are the only ones against you then you have no idea.

You see here is the thing Lyra, we've been fighting these people for a long long time. It's not us you have to worry about. We aren't the ones who are going to pinch your arse or try to see if there really is a cock and balls under your skirt. We aren't the ones who will rape you when we get frustrated at finding that you don't have a vagina. We aren't the ones who will corner you in the dark corner of a night club to try and feel your tits.

Don't go thinking we are your enemy.
We just want to preserve the few rights we have.
You will find that men are going to get in your way much much more.

AbsintheFriends · 15/01/2018 21:39

I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this
Whenever I hear this, it always signifies exactly the opposite. I always imagine it being said through a rictus grin, to the sound of forced laughter

AbsintheFriends · 15/01/2018 21:41

(Now I feel bad for distracting from Simon's brilliant point with that observation)

Mytholmroyd · 15/01/2018 21:43

LyraLyra Pantsonfire-a

Genius donation Grin

MrsDoylesTeaBags · 15/01/2018 21:44

@LyraPotter, thanks fot reminding me to donate

Hidingtonothing · 15/01/2018 21:47

God I love this thread, you lot give me hope.

EamonnWright · 15/01/2018 21:50

I was retweeted by Magdalen Berns Smile

Have never watched any of her videos are they worth a watch?

BelaLugosisShed · 15/01/2018 21:50

Lyra’s posts gave me more of a laugh than when Liam Madigan said he could get pregnant and a middle aged woman agreed with him.
Lyra is a sanctimonius, lying prick.

ATeardropExplodes · 15/01/2018 21:52

Yes Magdalen Berns videos are fab. Esp the 'lesbians dont have penises' one.

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans · 15/01/2018 21:53

I was retweeted by Magdalen Berns

Nice one! Yes. Her videos are great.

I was at a feminist event in Conway Hall a few years ago where Magdalen was a speaker. She had the whole room chanting "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LESBIAN WITH A PENIS!!!!"

EamonnWright · 15/01/2018 21:55

Thank you troops I will have a look later Smile

If my mates knew I got excited about being retweeted by a Feminist I would never live it down lol.

ATeardropExplodes · 15/01/2018 21:57

this is a good one from Dave Chappelle

EamonnWright · 15/01/2018 22:02

Chappelle nails it. Why are we being forced to partake in someone else's delusion? If my mate called to my door in the morning for his lift to work and he told me he was a black Lesbian I would ring flat 10 at the Mater hospital to find out how we section him. Yet I'm supposed to buy this nonsense?

It's actually one of the main things for me. Am I supposed to forget my 16 years of learning and all that comes with it and believe a man can become a woman?

That's just lunacy.