Hampstead Heath Women's Pond

[Gacapa]

Hampstead Heath ladies say swimming pond is not gender fluid

dailym.ai/2El0eLA

Here we go...

CertainHalfDesertedStreets just for the record the ladies’ pond is way better than the men’s pond! I’ve swum in all of them because sometimes we get an invitation to swim in the men’s pond (the invitation is never reciprocated), and when they were doing work on the dams around the ladies’ pond we were allowed to swim in the men’s pond for the first couple of hours each day. I’d agree with Saints that invading the men’s pond isn’t the answer, none of those users will be flocking to the ladies’ pond.

On the gay thing, what Beetle says is true, the men’s pond doesn’t feel like a gay men’s space particularly, aside from the public meadow opposite in very hot weather. It really isn’t known as a “space for gay men to do their thing in peace” - it’s the West Heath which is known for cruising which is quite a trek from the men’s pond. At the pond there is a large screened off area of the (open to the sky) changing space where nude sunbathing is allowed - this is where they let women change when we are invited to use the pond - and I’m sure there’s plenty of eyeing each other up in there is the summer, but it’s not something a straight man would be unable to easily avoid.

The first sentence of the email to KLPA members was a pretty special example of trans newspeak:

Dear KLPA member

As you may be aware, there has been coverage in the media today about male swimmers being allowed to swim and use the changing and showering facilities at the Ladies’ Pond, confusing this issue with that of transgender swimmers. The statement below sets out the KLPA Committee’s position on the matter of transgender swimmers in relation both to the law and the practicalities of safe and respectful conduct at the Pond.

We are making plans for all KLPA members to be given more information about the issues surrounding transgender swimmers and an opportunity to discuss any concerns that members may have. For the record, in 2017 there has been no evidence of an increase in men attempting to abuse the legal position in relation to transgender rights. It is our understanding that the very few incidents that did occur during the hot weather were dealt with effectively by the lifeguards (who have had experience over the years to occasional episodes of men trying to gain access).

TRANSGENDER WOMEN AT THE KENWOOD LADIES' POND

The KLPA is committed to ensuring safe and respectful swimming at the Ladies Pond and an inclusive social environment in which everyone can expect to be treated with respect, courtesy and consideration and be free from discrimination, harassment or victimisation. It goes without saying that transgender women should be treated in the same way but with consideration for the additional sensitivities they may face. Although it is tempting to assume someone’s gender simply by their appearance, it’s important to try to avoid doing so and to be aware of the needs of genuinely transgender women.

The legal context for this is the Equalities Act 2010 which prohibits discrimination on grounds of transgender status. The City of London, which manages the Ponds, is bound by this and so too is the KLPA. In that regard, both the lifeguards and members of the KLPA Committee have undergone transgender awareness training and we have been considering ways of providing a trans-friendly swimming environment.

We understand the process of transition can be complex and difficult and we would wish to act in a supportive and sensitive way. We recognize the need to provide the option of additional privacy for changing/showering and have begun discussions with the City about achieving this.

The diverse community of women and girls – including transgender women – at the Ladies’ Pond contribute to its unique and very precious quality. We believe that with a continued commitment from all swimmers to respect the rights to the privacy and dignity of others, we can continue to protect and enjoy it.

With all good wishes for a happy and peaceful 2018.

Do you have to pay a membership fee for access to the pond? I'm just wondering what would happen if members withdrew support.

No, membership of the KLPA is completely optional, although it only costs £5 a year and they do a lot of really good work to protect the pond. In theory there is an entrance charge (£2) but it is set up in such a way that you don’t need to pay it - like a contributions box on the way into an art gallery.

Just to be clear, the KLPA don’t run the pond, the City do, but the KLPA are a very active pressure group.

KPLA is wrong of course.

A difference in treatment may be lawful if ... A service provider provides single-sex services. If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your acquired gender. In very restricted circumstances it is lawful for an organisation to provide a different service or to refuse the service to someone who is undergoing or has undergone gender reassignment.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

Thanks witchmountain. I suppose 'better' is subjective. It is much bigger. I like a nice open space to swim in

I do think that the situation can't be two mixed ponds and one for just men. So taking the protest to the men's pond seems logical to me.

Btw - let's do SOMETHING.
Let's get organised.

I thought I’d like the openness and it was nice as a novelty but I missed the trees and the kingfishers and the dragonflies etc etc - you still get the cormorants and herons but I think it’s too open for as much wildlife. Weirdly it also smells different! Not worse, just different!

www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/convicted-sex-offender-found-living-with-teenage-girl-157917/

Don’t know how to link, but this Is really worrying, and validates our issues.

Right am currently doing diversity e training at work. According to the programme the equality act protects gender reassignment individuals and that for the purpose of the act an individual will be counted if they're planning gender reassignment in the future. They don't have to have started the process.

So this means any man can enter any woman's space and be legally supported as long as he says he's thinking about changing gender in the future?

If this is right then the womens pond committee are probably worried about being sued if they turn men away.

Viva, have you asked them how this works alongside the rights of the female sex to have dignity, respect and protection?

worried about being sued if they turn men away

I hear this, and I wonder how realistic that expectation is (well, in general - TAs are well funded and pushy, so probably more likely than usual) - are people going around suing people that much in the UK?

Well it's online learning so no question opportunities. But I'd probably just be accused of making stereotypical assumptions that a woman would be harrassed by a trans person.

Remember the gay couple who sued over been turned away from a b&b? So yes if people thinking about gender reassignment are protected just as much as a gay person I do think someone will be champing at the bit to sue.

There haven't been many test cases. What happens with one case could affect the whole issue. It clashes with other groups' rights. And there are exemptions in the EA where exclusions are possible as a proportionate response to a legitimate aim. A lot of this depends on public perception.

The b&b case the owners tried arguing that as a Christian couple being made to allow gay couples into their own home interfered with their rights. But case didn't go in their favour.

I know. I am completely aware of the law on this point having been schooled once by a particularly obnoxious trans activist and have tried to make the point before that defeating self ID won't change that they already have rights to enter women's spaces. However there are exemptions and a lot of the stuff around safeguarding etc hasn't been thought through. The law was not intended to accommodate the "gender fluid" or cross dressing men.

We can put public pressure on organisations to use the existing exemptions. Most people aren't aware how far this has gone. They think it's poor gay men trapped in women's bodies. Raise awareness and encourage everyone to write letters to their councils, hospitals, MPs etc.

Gay men who are "women trapped in men's bodies" I meant! Christ the language is a head fuck

I am not opposed to women wanting their own space especially when there are other swimming options available. It amuses me somewhat though that Scouting, a preserve for males had to accept females, many male only golf clubs to accept women members and most gyms and swimming pools don't have men only sessions although women only sessions are prevalent.
Both sexes/genders like to have time on their own just seems there's a little imbalance to me.

There's a pond for men specifically at Hampstead Heath.

It amuses me somewhat though that Scouting, a preserve for males had to accept females because not enough boys wanted to be scouts so they needed the girls to keep scouting going

There. Fixed that for you, you can thank me any time.

I am not opposed to women wanting their own space especially when there are other swimming options available. It amuses me somewhat though that Scouting, a preserve for males had to accept females, many male only golf clubs to accept women members and most gyms and swimming pools don't have men only sessions although women only sessions are prevalent. Both sexes/genders like to have time on their own just seems there's a little imbalance to me.

The scouts decided to accept girls because they were struggling to recruit enough boys to keep going, so opened up to girls.

Male only spaces like golf clubs/Masons that sort of thing excluded women very much on the basis that they weren't 'worthy' enough to join in with the big boys.

Things like women only swim sessions, gym sessions, changing areas etc stem from the fact that because of the position of males and females in our society, many women feel more comfortable changing, swimming and exercising with other women. Most men tend to not give as much of a shit because they are already in the position of power in these situations.

Maybe there is an imbalance one way, but it comes about because of the general massive imbalance the other way.

If you need a men-only swim session or gym session, SaleorBuoy, ask at your local pool or gym and see if there's any demand for it.