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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist Fightback

195 replies

ladyballs · 29/12/2017 12:11

FF has announced on Facebook that they're now supporting transwomen as there is so much transmisogyny in the media. Illustrated with a meme exhorting women to support their sisters, not just cisters.

Ffs.

OP posts:
Lancelottie · 30/12/2017 13:06

Me too, Hemlock.

My parents had a worthy sort of Reader's Digest tome when I was little, called 'Great Lives, Great Deeds'.

It contained, IIRC, two women - Marie Curie and Mother Teresa. All the other hundred or so were men. So, given that I was going to be the next Einstein/Leonardo/Fleming, in my own juvenile opinion, being a girl was obviously a poor bet.

(I can remember the actual shock I got aged about 7 or so when I realised that I was expected to identify more with the Anne role in the Famous Five than with Bill Stubbs or Alf the clear-sighted fisher boy. Humph.)

BattleCuntGalactica · 30/12/2017 17:29

Oh please DO continue to tell me the hate and harassment I've experienced isn't really anything to do with radical feminism. Thanks for that, really. Christ.

Sex and gender are not the same thing, rinse, repeat, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Shut up.

I'm sure other victims of abuse really appreciate being asked to re-traumatise themselves to satisfy folks demanding justification for claims made against the toxicity of trans exclusionary and sexwork exclusionary radical feminism. I certainly don't. I know the difference between the abuse I've felt from men, and the abuse I've felt from radfems under the above categories. So no, I'm not going to sit here and go into the hows, wheres and whys, I did that with my friends and the therapist after I almost killed myself.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 30/12/2017 17:54

Hemlock-yes-there has always been pressure to change the person to fit the stereotype, not the other way round. Any attempt to challenge the stereotype is met with derision

I vividly remember the derision and often (mild) physical violence from males at school who liked to make sure that girls conformed to their stereotypical ideals of femininity. Thank goodness for feminism. It wasn't just radical feminism in those days either.

BertrandRussell · 30/12/2017 17:56

“Oh please DO continue to tell me the hate and harassment I've experienced isn't really anything to do with radical feminism. Thanks for that, really. Christ. ”

I’m sorry, but yes, I will tell you that. That is not to minimize the hate and harassment. But it was nothing to do with radical feminism. I don’t know who did it- and whoever it was they are utterly despicable. But it wasn’t radical feminists.

RebelRogue · 30/12/2017 18:04

One of my friends aunt calls herself a feminist. She's very vocal about it. She called my friend's son a misogynist when he was 3. That doesn't mean all feminists think that or spend their time putting toddlers under a microscope to check for any signs of misogyny or patriarchal entitlement.

Datun · 30/12/2017 18:09

Oh please DO continue to tell me the hate and harassment I've experienced isn't really anything to do with radical feminism. Thanks for that, really. Christ.

It really isn't. If they called themselves radical feminists, they're really not.

MentholBreeze · 30/12/2017 18:28

Most children more or less automatically follow what other children are doing or expected to do, and especially follow 'their sort'. They very quickly work out which 'sort' they are by school-age or so.

Exactly. I had the luck to be raised fairly isolated, and with a mum who taught me maths from an early age, and a dad who had computers, but who both also taught me to knit, to cook, to do woodwork, but were rubbish at gardening, cleaning, didn't care about sport etc. - ie. were fully and obviously human with various strengths and weaknesses, interests and disinterests - ie. made it obvious that there wasn't one way to be a person. I actually also credit my sibling who is severely dyspraxic with a lot, because I could see that other people were down on him because he couldn't speak, was a immature etc, but I knew he was kind and clever - just in a different way to the way they wanted him to be.

in my turn, I have sons who have their own personality, and wrestle with society (the youngest is being told at school that pink is a girls colour, but it's his favourite, and always has been, so we're having to work with him on letting him be him, but not get a hard time from his peers).

And, in a small way, they have an influence. DS2 menacing the public in a fairy costume with a nerf gun, DS1 being the first to go and talk to anyone with a baby (he loves babies) or making sure little toddlers get involved at the softplay - but both knowing that they are boys, and that toys, colours, and interests are for everyone.

That is rad fem.

theaveragewife · 30/12/2017 18:41

No, it’s definitely not radical feminists. I’m sorry Battle for what you have been through, and I agree sex and gender are not the same thing because gender is a social construct which should be abolished - leaving us free to be who we want, wear trousers, no make up etc etc without feeling dysphoric.

Your hatred is misdirected entirely. People are asking for your story because they want to hear it btw.

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2017 18:51

Battle. Please explain how wishing to get rid of constricting gender that has caused you yourself pain and problems and fight the exploitation of women for male pleasure and profit is "toxic". Prostitution and pornography affect all women. None of us identify with our oppression as females. It's not all about you.

thebewilderness · 30/12/2017 20:19

A uterus does not define how a person responds as a child to gender socialisation does it?
You bet your bippy it does.
Half the population knows exactly what it means when they hear the other half of the population chanting "girls can't, girls can't, girls can't."

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2017 20:28

A uterus in the vast majority of cases means you receive a female socialisation which is different to the one you would get if you had a penis.

thebewilderness · 30/12/2017 20:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ALunerExplorer · 30/12/2017 20:59

I listen to people, look at the evidence, and see that differently.

Voicing that is very clearly not popular. Still, free speech and all that.

BertrandRussell · 30/12/2017 21:05

"Voicing that is very clearly not popular. Still, free speech and all that."

Who knows? It might be incredibly popular. I might ageee with every word you say. The problem is, i don't know what it is you are saying.....

BeyondAssignation · 30/12/2017 21:14

It's a common theme, Bert...

ALunerExplorer · 30/12/2017 21:16

When the response to:

'my offspring received bi-phobic verbal abuse'

is

'well if it was because she is bi that's bad, but if there were another reason it might be okay',

and other people find it difficult to grasp why I might have a problem with that, that has nothing to do with a failure of communication on my part.

BertrandRussell · 30/12/2017 21:29

“well if it was because she is bi that's bad, but if there were another reason it might be okay', ”

Bollocks did anyone say that.

BarrackerBarmer · 30/12/2017 21:31

I think the problem is that advocates of words meaning whatever an individual wishes them to mean find that no one can infer ANY meaning from what they say. Your words become meaningless.

You say 'abuse' and you may be referring to disagreement
You say phobic and you mean disagreement.
You say hatred and you mean disagreement

Once you redefine words to mean whatever you want you lose the ability to communicate with others because you've lost a common language.

RebelRogue · 30/12/2017 21:34

@Ereshkigal exactly. Growing up I was always told how wrong the things i was doing or wanted were because I was a girl. It wasn't the things in themselves that were bad(well maybe some were ,what with being young and stupid) it was me doing them as a girl. I found myself wishing i was a boy, found myself more comfortable with boys and trying to be one of the boys, the girls were all vacuous , insipid, boring and shallow creatures(did I mention young and stupid?) . I was convinced I should've been born a boy, that i had a boy mind. For years i was adamant that if i had a child i wanted a boy as I wouldn't have any idea what ro do with a girl. And many more bs ideas all born from you are a girl, therefore you must be x, do y, think z etc

guardianfree · 30/12/2017 21:35

@ALunerExplorer
You are now derailing this thread as you did yesterday with your confusing comments about your bi daughter. It transpired (after many many posts trying to clarify what on earth you were talking about) that you were unhappy about your daughter being bullied at her school by other girls. You were advised to start your own thread.
You were not responded to inappropriately. Your comments were unclear and confusing.

BeyondAssignation · 30/12/2017 21:35

At the risk of falling into another derailing hole, how is the abuse biphobic if it is for another reason (and the insult doesn't actually refer to bisexuality)?

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2017 21:38

Once you redefine words to mean whatever you want you lose the ability to communicate with others because you've lost a common language.

YY. So we have disagreement or disputing a position or theory being referred to "violence" in some quarters. And actual violence being justified on the back of it.

ALunerExplorer · 30/12/2017 21:38

Sorry but whilst I know that this was on the other thread, and would therefore like to avoid being wrongly accused of derailing, someone else brought up a school thing I had never mentioned. Since my dd left school a good 3 years ago now.

But that was on another thread (and btw the first time I got accused of that they were wrong then too).

I'm new here and you lot a like a pack of fucking wolves.

Ereshkigal · 30/12/2017 21:39

Growing up I was always told how wrong the things i was doing or wanted were because I was a girl.

YY. It's such a common experience. And demonstrates the harmfulness of reifying gender stereotypes.

BeyondAssignation · 30/12/2017 21:40

Anyway, probably best not to engage here and wait for Luner to start that thread :)

Battle, I felt "wrong" as a child and "not like other girls"...

  1. there's a bit of a "ladette" culture that interplay's there imo, making the individual feel they are different and special, almost like the younger version of a "cool wife" (two terms I don't generally use, but it's useful shorthand). Internalised misogyny 101.
  2. I was diagnosed with asd just shy of 30.