Does anyone feel the need to reclaim femnism.....?

[BertrandRussell]

So many important issues just seem to be falling by the wayside. When did we last have any sort of discussion about reproductive rights in US? The Million Woman March-remember that? Weinstein and the follow up? FGM? The abortion debate in Ireland?

Anyway can we move on?

Yes. Sorry Bertrand.

Must stop throwing the fucking fish for them.

I did make a nice quiche earlier if that's more relevant? Blind baked the pastry and everything...

I first heard handmaiden here. In the old days I think the term was 'cocksucker'. If anyone can be bothered the American feminist Mary Daly spent some energy discussing women who fucked over other women for male approval. The opposite was 'womyn identified womyn' from memory.

My reason for starting this thread was realizing that I would not be at all surprised if absolutely nothing changes after the Pussy March/Weinstein/#metoo events. Everything will just settle back down the way it was before with very little if any change

My reason (well one of them) for avoiding twitter is that it it allows for clicktivsm and catharsis but usually changes very little, especially in terms of entrenched sexism. Some men will be exposed and vilified (sacrificial lambs) and life will go on as normal for most.

I do have a birthday cake to decorate........

And dp is making pizza with the dough I made earlier today

Ah yes, Mary Daly. Loved her writing back in the day. I might dig her out tonight - iit’s good to touch base.

Handmaiden is a ridiculous catch-all term... It is used to ridicule a woman you don't agree with.

I agree with you there Lass, and as a gendered insult for behaviour that is not exclusive to women I find it deeply misogynistic.

BeyondAssignation YY. I think that 'handmaid' has different nuances for different people.

I can't hear the word without mentally connecting it to Mary ("I am the handmaiden of the Lord" at the annunciation). To me, the word means 'woman who chooses to submit'. Which I think might also work in feminist contexts. Women choose to submit to the patriarchy for various self-serving, self-protective or (e.g. in the case of mothers who prioritise their children/elderly relatives because their male relatives won't) selfless reasons.

I personally can't get too worked up about whether people use the word disparagingly or not.

Sorry for the further derail BertrandRussell. Back to baking Pizza sounds flipping lovely.

The pizza is smelling amazing. I make the dough, dp does the topping and baking.
It is impossible for men to be "handmaidens" because it is a term to describe women colliding with misogyny for their own advantage while disregarding the needs of other women.

It is impossible for men to be "handmaidens" because it is a term to describe women colliding with misogyny for their own advantage while disregarding the needs of other women.

Exactly. So yes it is "exclusive to women" by default.

I have asked what very specific behaviours make a woman a "handmaiden"?
Women who are in compliance with and promote the dominance/submission paradigm. Usually because their survival depends on it.
Take note of what the women say who are "porn stars" and prostituted women before, and then after, they exit.

Your pizza sounds lush bert

There was me thinking 'I'll get my coat" and you return to the topic yourself! It's your thread I suppose

"Usually because their survival depends on it."
No. Because their comfort and convenience depend on it. And because any other behaviour would require difficult thinking and "consciousness raising".

"There was me thinking 'I'll get my coat" and you return to the topic yourself! It's your thread I suppose"

Oh god, I know! Stop me, please-I'm my own worst enemy.......

It's all about performing mental acrobatics to avoid the truth isn't it? Cognitive dissonance is it?

Otherwise my MIL, for example, would be required to accept that she has spent 50 years skivvying for an arsehole who holds her in contempt. Much better to believe all that patriarchal guff about women's roles and be utterly bemused by me because I don't give a shiny shit about any of it.

BertrandRussell
I suppose you and the Dworkin argument that these women cut the best deal they could, and now they have to lump it, from Right Wing Women is correct.
Still, I always keep in mind that it is when a woman tries to leave that is the most dangerous for her.

"Still, I always keep in mind that it is when a woman tries to leave that is the most dangerous for her."

You misunderstand me, I think. Women who have no choice are not handmaidens.

One example that springs to mind that always came up on a different forum is "she's 14/15 she knows what she's doing" coupled with examples of "awful" sexual behaviour of such 14/15 yos when discussing a man having sex with a child.

I would never ever use the word "handmaiden" about a woman in a DV situation or under any kind of obvious physical or mental duress. I have been that woman. I will continue to use my judgement to decide when I feel it is appropriate to use it.

I'm gonna nick rebel's post from another thread (hope that's okay, rebel?)...

"And I used to be a handmaiden grin(still have some leftovers) . I could not relate to females or the idea of what i was told they were ,so i was more than ready to defend the males,my tribe, the ones i related to and understood. In a very simplistic way, I thought like them, I acted like them sometimes but I wasn't x,y,z so they couldn't be either. I took the "hate" personally and if the argument wouldn't apply to me because i was was a girl,but not to them because they were boys , then it was stupid and irrelevant. Meh I grew up eventually."

Rebel, what you are talking about is "victim blaming". Again, like colluding, enabling and excusing misogyny, it is not a gender specific behaviour. So why single out women for the name calling?

Bert, do you consider women who choose to absent themselves from the work for conveinience and comfort and instead facilitate their husbands career by doing most/all the wifework, knowing that this negatively impacts women in the workplace "handmaidens"?

Rebel, what you are talking about is "victim blaming". Again, like colluding, enabling and excusing misogyny, it is not a gender specific behaviour. So why single out women for the name calling?

Being a woman colluding, enabling and excusing misogyny which hurts other women is a gender specific behaviour. That's the whole point. Are you this obtuse naturally or do you have to work at it?

Bert, do you consider women who choose to absent themselves from the work for conveinience and comfort and instead facilitate their husbands career by doing most/all the wifework, knowing that this negatively impacts women in the workplace "handmaidens"

Not biting. Not throwing it fish. Sitting here on my SAHM hands not biting.

May eat some more quiche. I put asparagus and goat's cheese in it because that's what I had to hand.

I suspect stuff will be a bit better following #metoo because many people are self serving wankers and will think twice about sexually harassing the new girl at work in case they end up shamed on social media. And I think some of the good guys have had their eyes opened a bit more. And perhaps we all realise that we can call it out more and teach our girls to call it out. So baby steps. Maybe.