Breastfeeding and feminism

[user123098]

Hey
Not trying to be a GF or here to discuss merits of bf or ff but just interested in views - someone said to me tonight that bf is inherently anti feminist as it means men and women can't share domestic and caring load of looking after baby. It's a really interesting point as bf does mean men can't be as involved in feeding, potentially bonding etc
What do you think?

Setting up BF as easy/natural/womanly/motherly etc is deeply, deeply wrong

So do you expect HCPs to tell pregnant women that it's really hard and shit and they probably won't succeed?

HCPs should definitely tell women it’s hard

We’re not kids FFS. Lay it out straight and honest, give us half a chance otherwise it feels like you’ve failed when you’ve barely started

It's not just about telling it how it is though, it's about having decent support on hand following birth.
My hospital was a BFing friendly hospital (nearly 7 years ago now), yet every single midwife had a different and often conflicting approach which led to confusion and women who wanted to BF giving up before they'd left hospital, and feeling like failures probably.
A feminist approach would surely be supporting a woman through the early trials without dictating how it should be done with often outdated practices.

No, HCPs should not be starting from a negative (not to mention subjective) point at all

It should be illegal to make a profit from formula: government made and approved. All the endless diversion about ff vs bf is a massive distraction from this imo. Multinational corporations should not stand to make money from diverting women from bf, so morally wrong.

It seems that in general women are not told that it's normal to find breastfeeding fucking painful and tiresome in the initial days. If it's presented as "some people can do it easy" then the excuse to give up is easy. If you persevere the benefits are enormous, not just health but not having to fuck around with bottles and sterilised water and warmers and all that. And having instant comfort for teething etc.

This is a women-as-class issue and it's a UK problem.

I am loving the replies, thank you everyone
Just my two cents worth

• bf is bloody hard work
• babies in general are bloody hard work
• women are judged whatever we do
• I DO believe the health benefits of bf are over exaggerated BUT the benefits to me personally (free, I'm lazy, no bottle faff) made it an easy choice
• it's more anti feminist to attack women for their choices than it is to bf, surely?!

The number one biggest predictor of how you'll end up feeding your child is what your family members have previously done.

Sometimes people break the trend but it's not very likely.

I think the reasons for this are very complex but it's likely to be a combination of - what you've seen and expected during your childhood, what you've learned about "normal" baby behaviour, so again expectations, and the kind of support you're getting from those closest to you at the time of birth.

I don't think these can really be solved or changed with a leaflet or a talk from a HCP.

These days I'm pretty honest about why I formula fed. I breast fed for about three weeks with my first. I loathed it. I needed sleep. For whatever reason(s), I just wasn't up to it.

I did end up with severe PND, and had to stay in a mother and baby unit for a month. And yes I do believe that pressure to breast feed, and the guilt at just hating it, led to that in no small way.

My second child was FF from the off.

I now pretty much just freely admit that being able to share night feeds and sleep was more important to me than any benefit of breast milk for me or my children. What kind of woman, mother or feminist that makes me I've no idea really. But I think that fundamentally I prioritised my own mental health at the time. I really don't know how women do it. I don't feel guilty anymore. If anything, I sort of see it as like other things I'm rubbish at, as an individual...I've got a terribly short attention span, am quite introverted, tire easily, a bit lazy if I'm honest.

But I can see it as a woman-as-class issue. Interesting arguments here.

Nobody should be forced to breastfeed if they don't want to, but personally I found breastfeeding easy.

"I believe it's in a woman's interest to breastfeed due to the numerous health benefits to her, but in the exception where any issues arise outweighs those benefits, in which case it is not in the interest in that individual mother's case

What "health benefits" would that be? Teetering on pnd? Resenting my son? Being unable leave the house because he needed to be fed hourly? At 2 months in never getting more than an hour's sleep? Being physically sick because of the admittedly rare nausea (and never mentioned) side effect of the let down hormone?

So you tried hard at it. Clearly I didn't.

And this talk of women as a class is irrelevant if you are going to trivialise and minimise any one who didn't try hard enough as just a few exceptions.

NannyOgg made some excellent points about body autonomy - extreme lactivists are every bit as bad as rabid anti-abortionists.

Can I just add u spent my Christmas Eve on a breastfeeding helpline talking to woman who wanted to breastfeed but weren’t getting support from hcp. I did it as a volunteer. I’ve spent 18 month training. The inference that breastfeeding supporters are unthinking zealots is mean. I and my fellow counsellors work our arses off for free, to support woman who want our support. Picking up the pieces of a health service and society that is deeply anti woman. It’s Feminism in action

It seems that in general women are not told that it's normal to find breastfeeding fucking painful and tiresome in the initial days. If it's presented as "some people can do it easy" then the excuse to give up is easy.*
Yes so true. I think they should say the first six weeks are hard, you might want to stop but if you can stick it out past those six weeks it gets a lot easier.

Nausea from let down sounds horrible lass.
I suppose also we shouldn't forget that historically babies with feeding issues would die

Well said, ICJump.

In the past I have driven through rain and snow to answer the call of a woman struggling with BF on Christmas Eve. I had a call a few years ago on Christmas Day. I referred her to her midwife.

This is not because I am a rabid fascist.

Less, it's obviously not the case that every individual woman benefits from BF. Some women have a horrible experience that negates any positives there might be. But if you don't see women as a class having gendered experiences, related to patriarchy, then clearly you don't see the point of being feminist.

Relating to, and turning every experience back to oneself as an individual, and claiming that this individual experience wipes out any general understanding and any analysis .....well, it's not very helpful, is it?

Less should be Lass :)

Banging on about women as a class is supremely unhelpful to the individual. And what I got from the idiotic woman from the NCT was "breast is best" like a stuck record.

Ignoring the 'exceptions" because you want to push an agenda is unhelpful. Belittling those "exceptions" is unhelpful. Telling lies such as every woman can breast feed is unhelpful.

But if you don't see women as a class having gendered experiences, related to patriarchy, then clearly you don't see the point of being feminist

What has that got to do with pushing breast feeding? No, if the agenda being promoted by you and Cherry is feminist -I don't see the point. All that talk on here about "bodily autonomy" except when it comes to bf- then we are supposed to be docile milch cows.

So far as the health benefits in western Europe does this take account of any sociological and economic background? Middle class women like me are bullied into breast feeding. It is recognised women from poor and deprived backgrounds are less likely to bf. I am not in the least bit convinced my son's excellent health has anything to do with the 2/3 months of hell than my general life style pre and post birth.

The health benefit of breast cancer risk reduction applies to every woman, rich, poor, in every country. It is a cumulative reduction - the longer you feed, the less your risk.

There will be individual woman with 5 kids who breastfed every one to 3 years who still get breast cancer. That can happen. It’s the nature of risk as opposed to certainty.

Individual experiences do not render population analysis irrelevant. If they did, the whole of medical research might as well pack up and go home.

I was the one who made the comment about the rabid lactavists. I did qualify that not all BF supporters are like this.

But having spent a few dozen threads discussing this on here I have seen again and again opinions from MNers that I hope to god they don’t repeat in real life to women who have or are struggling to BF.

Caring, supportive, non-judgmental BF support is fantastic and real services and we need more of it.

What I question is the people who come on here, to threads where it is obvious the OP is spiralling into depression under the strain of trying to perform their maternal roles in a way they were told is the only socially acceptable way by peers (which is now entirely the case for middle class mothers). And what these people encourage the OP to do is find donated breast milk/ pump all day/ push through the agony etc.

It is entirely time deaf. It doesn’t take into account that other people could have different experiences and not everyone will eventually get on with BF. In fact, being encouraged to keep on BF will damage both mother and child.

It is the BF at all costs brigade (there are at least two who regularly post on here) that are anti-feminist and who are damaging the perception of BF.

Unfortunately for me I also met one of these kinds of BF supporters in real life and they happened to be my health visitor. I will never forgive her for the way she made me feel. Or the total ineffectiveness of my BF support in general.

Look, lass, you are not a feminist. That's clear. If you don't see women as a class you can't be. No worries - not everyone thinks the same.

But for the record, many ppl are like me - we don't discount individual experiences and we don't bang on about breast is best or claim every one can do it.

You are insulting, saying I and others think of BF as women being milch cows. Or supporting BF as thinking women should be milch cows.

I was referring to the benefits for the child not the woman.

I don’t understand why breastfeeding gets singled out for special vitriol

I have a long history of sexual abuse and rape - it was all over my birth plan, it basically was my entire birth plan. I still had midwives examine me without consent and do other things that amounted to psychological torture while telling me it was all for the best (it wasn’t, I had very straightforward births)

Shitheads exist in every profession. But for some reason the existence of shithead lactivists is taken as proof that the whole idea of supporting / promoting breastfeeding is a terrible idea

I’m not campaigning against VEs because I had a terrible experience. I believe they should be consented to, yes, but I haven’t taken against the whole concept

Unfortunately for me I also met one of these kinds of BF supporters in real life and they happened to be my health visitor. I will never forgive her for the way she made me feel

Yes me too. Which is why all this "women as a class" stuff is completely irrelevant when on the ground she was faced with a client who was seriously struggling. This woman could not see past the idea that "breast is best".

The notion that in 20/30 years time I might be at less risk of breast cancer is pretty irrelevant.

I believe the benefits to the woman of breastfeeding is the main feminist issue.

The fact that the child benefits are touted way above the female health benefits is to me, evidence of sexism in action.

A woman’s health is not irrelevant just because she’s having / had a child. But all too often that is the attitude society has.

Yes batteries that is exactly the problem.

I have said for some time that the narrative and emotionally charged language surrounding BF in this country is the problem, not the solution. It leads to people who are just trying to help sounding like robotic pencil pushers rather than the caring human being they (probably) mostly are.

‘But you must try to breast feed’ and ‘breast is best’ on loop and then essentially sticking your fingers in your ears when people try to discuss the downsides of EBF is fantastically unhelpful.

There is another way. But it would require people in the BF camp to actually listen to those of us who had terrible experiences and not dismiss us out of had as exceptions or (and I have seen this said) bitter losers.

Babies with feeding issues in the past actually wouldn't have always died - this is a bit of a myth which gets thrown around, in reality babies would have been fed on pap (grain or potato mixed with water, sometimes with broth added) or the milks of other animals or sometimes by other women. In fact women can induce lactation in many situations including when they are post menopausal! It is a very modern idea that breastfeeding is something very special and difficult which only the child's mother is able to do. And I believe a large part of this shift in thinking is thanks to men interfering in what would traditionally have been a very female sphere and wanting to control it and hence decided what was "cleaner" or "more scientific" - with good reason perhaps but in a very paternalistic way, not actually looking and listening to what was happening and what was working for many babies.

Of course pap was an inadequate food for babies and many would have suffered from malnutrition or been susceptible to stomach upsets from poor hygiene here, so it is good that we've had advances in baby foods and milks in more recent times.

You see a similar(ish) thing happening today with some forms of BF support - I read a fascinating article about some ethnic groups in the US tending to mix bottle and breastfeeding very liberally in the first few days/weeks and yet managing to breastfeed successfully long term - however, well-meaning BF supporters, going by the knowledge they had from predominantly white women, tend to go in heavy handed, discouraging early use of formula and bottles very strongly, because in white communities this tends to lead to a downturn in breastfeeding - they didn't look and listen to these communities who have been mixing breast and bottle with no issues, and inadvertently, their advice caused breastfeeding rates to drop.