Breastfeeding and feminism

[user123098]

Hey
Not trying to be a GF or here to discuss merits of bf or ff but just interested in views - someone said to me tonight that bf is inherently anti feminist as it means men and women can't share domestic and caring load of looking after baby. It's a really interesting point as bf does mean men can't be as involved in feeding, potentially bonding etc
What do you think?

This space often has utter shite on it but this tops the chart of bollocks spouted on here

They also have them horse or donkey milk as it's the closest type of milk to human milk apparently. Mostly though women would have fed each other's babies.

I'm the politics of bf it was interesting to read that till around the 50's it was normal for children to wean older around 3-5. Women had no idea in rural outer areas that it had become a thing to wean earlier. (Recorded in local history from Lancashire if iirc).

Far this isn't flat earth stuff. This is anthropology and modern history.

falange that is.

There is also evidence that successful bf is actually beneficial to mothers' health beyond reducing breast cancer:

Eg anti inflammatory for example

www.uppitysciencechick.com

"very modern idea that breastfeeding is something very special and difficult which only the child's mother is able to do"

Both my sisters have BF the others children when needed (I feel rather left out). People are really weird about it

Seems to me that breastfeeding is an inherently feminist act: my choice to do what I want with my female body. My body autonomy, not controlled by a patriarchally-instituted schedule. My choice to share my body with my baby. This extends equally to any lactating woman feeding any infant.

I have been a trained breastfeeding supporter, and an important aspect of the relationship between the supporter and the mother is recognising, accepting and supporting the mother's choices. Not breastfeeding at all costs.

BTW I'm not saying that you have to breastfeed to be a feminist. It's about having the choice and exercising your right to choose.

Bertie, good points. Bf is always socially and culturally and emotionally mediated. It is a set of behaviours, far more than just a nutritional option.

This is why it is always important to observe and listen to what is actually going on.

And it’s also why people like lass feel that it is fine to equate bf as being like a milch cow - horrendously insulting as that is to all bf women, the idea springs from her own and others’ ideas and experiences. Not that that excuses someone who has presumably read and heard other views - but it does explain it.

Crack on with your bitchy, belittling echo chamber. You obviously don’t care about any opinion or experience that doesn’t you predetermined ideas.

Disappointing.

Arguing about HCPs who spout "breast is best" in the face of overwhelming evidence that it isn't in an individual circumstance is what the formula manufacturers must love. Turning women against each other, using examples of poor individual healthcare to delegitimise ALL bf support.

Those people who spout "breast is best" all the time are probably the same ones going on about how a VB is best and c-sections aren't as good. The thing is, on a population level, VB is healthier. But in individual circumstances the life of mother and baby can be saved by c-section. I wish I could have had my kids by uncomplicated VB. But I couldn't. I find people who bang on about it a bit irritating but realise there are good scientific reasons to encourage VB for healthy women / pregnancies. Imagine this though - say a company figured out a way to make money from csections and then set about persuading women who could have had uncomplicated VB to have expensive csections. Not great? But this is what happens with formula.

Many women can't bf for various reasons, but what if instead of paying for formula (made from cows milk) you could get pasteurised human milk for free? If even a tiny amount of the profits from formula were put into milk banks I bet this would be possible. I'd happily donate breastmilk being lucky enough to find it easy after the first 6 weeks, but there seems to be no way to. I've searched.

This is why it's a feminist issue. Merry Xmas everyone!

What is anti- feminist is men selling an inferior product for feeding babies than the one produced by women’s bodies.
The lengths that they have gone to for commercial gain from this. The subtle marketing strategies they use when overt advertising is banned.
A few examples:
-pitting women against each other by trying to stir up “mummy wars” at any opportunity.
-changing culture around birth so that it is desirable to go home from hospital well before bf is established rather than improving maternity wards.
-making bf less visible by generously providing breastfeeding rooms in shopping centres and public buildings.
-spreading the ideology that dads need to ‘have a turn’, ‘bond with baby’, etc.
-promoting rigid routines for young babies that don’t work well with bf.

And it’s also why people likelassfeel that it is fine to equate bf as being like a milch cow - horrendously insulting as that is to all bf women

You have failed to grasp the point.

My comment was aimed at posters like you and Cherry who want women who breast feed to be praised;
who bang on about "bodily autonomy" except when it comes to the decision about how to feed your baby;
who bang on about "women as a class" but airily dismiss the real- life experience of women, when it doesn't suit your agenda, as being mere "exceptions";
who pontificate about how much you care about women yet pay no attention to any one with a different point of view;
who bang on about the patriarchy and evil baby milk suppliers as if they rather than my body were the reason breast- feeding didn't work for me.

I second NannyOgg's comments.

What is anti- feminist is men selling an inferior product for feeding babies than the one produced by women’s bodies

And pray tell what do you suggest? I should have hired a wet nurse?

A few examples:
pitting women against each other by trying to stir up “mummy wars” at any opportunity

And how does this happen? Never seen this in real life but have come across plenty of women like Cherry who think breast- feeding deserves a medal.

In the past you could have hired a wet nurse. I recently saw a video about bf/ff that rewrote that part of history and claimed all babies would’ve died if their mother couldn’t bf.
Re: mummy wars, exactly what is happening on this thread. As a feminist, I believe you should choose how to feed your baby but we need to accept that the choice doesn’t happen in a vacuum and there are many outside influences which defy feminist principles rather than encouraging them.

At its heart, for me the final decision comes down to this: do I feel I can justify doing unto women for their/their babies' own good? And my answer is no.

So while I very much value the work that tiktok and others do to support women who want to breastfeed and acknowledge that they make a huge difference to many womens lives - in the context of a society where women are beset by pressures to out everyone else's needs before their own, where their bodily autonomy is under assault from all sides (sexual harassment, abortion laws, birth control, and so on) - this work is unfortunately always going to be tainted by the context we all live in. It will be seen through that lens by many - as yet another fucker trying to push me to do what they think I ought to do with my body.

That is a huge fucking problem if you want to support bfing mothers without being lumped in with the bad guys. Like it or not, this is not an equal situation where one woman saying "milch cow" is equivalent in force and sheer fucking destructive power to another woman saying "well if you really loved your baby...". And the latter exist. I don't really know how you get away from them. I don't really know how you can avoid being seen as part of them. Saying "it's not me it's the patriarchy" does not work.

Lass I specifically argued against 'praise' for BF, and explained why.

I also said it was important to acknowledge individual experiences, that BF is not 'best' in individual cases.

And I'm afraid you are insulting to BF women - milch cow, ffs.

No Tiktok you arebthe one being harsh. Lass is hardly ever the first person to feel like this about BF. Your treatment of her is harsh and bitchy. I honestly expect better of you. You are usually one of the more reasoned posters on this topic but your behaviour on this thread is a bit mean girls- elitist and smug.

Again, disappointing that you aren’t at all concerned how the BF message is coming across to mothers.

There is a big problem with breastfeeding as a physiological process not being properly understood.

I read the other day that there is now thought / hypothesised to be scientific basis behind it being easier to feed second or third babies than your first. Apparently new ducts develop/turn on during each pregnancy. The hormone changes that ‘turn on’ lactation happen again in each pregnancy but because the tissue has been through it before, it responds better. More milk is produced. Let down is easier, etc.

That correlates perfectly with my rl experience is that people often hugely struggle with their first baby. With subsequent babies even if they stopped breastfeeding early on before, the success rate seems to be higher. Not that I’ve documented it so this is just anecdata.

But if this is true surely its important to know. And makes an additional mockery of the ‘only 2-3% of women physiologically can’t breastfeed’ stat (which is clearly crap anyway).

I have a biology degree. When I started breastfeeding I researched the biology behind it because I realised I hadn’t learnt about it. Ever. Not covered in my Animal Behaviour module. Not covered in first year Human Biology. Not covered in my third year Nutrition module (which I took for additional credits along with lots of med students doing their BSc accreditation and which focused heavily on child nutrition...but didn’t mention bf )

The lack of scientific/medical knowledge about breastfeeding is a feminist issue. Women’s bodies are worthy of study. Male should not be default.

Sorry - should have said this is important because it’s difficult to give decent support for something that isn’t well understood. You end up relying too heavily on personal experience which only encourages the kind of bullies experienced by some on this thread.

(As well as it being important from a purely intellectual perspective.)

Are we reading the same thread? Tiktok and others seems to be entirely reasonable to me - that on a population. Level it's better, but for an individual that might not be the case.

To hark back to c-sections - I've had 2 EMCS, the second because I looked at evidence, I listened to people with quotas, where if someone experienced had read my notes and talked to me freely, I suspect they'd have advised a scheduled c-section.

BFing is like that, except that despite being pressured into VBAC, it wouldn't occur to me to call women who birthed normally insulting names. To me, that's crossing the line of the civilized discussion we normally manage in FWR and I am pretty disappointed in the users talking like that, although I do understand it's a sensitive topic.

I am permanently concerned about the way the 'message' comes across, Nanny.

Well perhaps be more receptive to the opinions of those who haven’t had the ideal BF experience. I am genuinely shocked by the way you are addressing Lass.

We all know that this is an emotive topic but you’ve stepped a bit too far with some of the direct attacks on her.

And it is not about hating on women who could BF. It’s about the fairly exclusionary atmosphere that often gets put across by BF advocates in these kinds of debates.

If you’re discussing BF with someone who has told you they were a failed breast feeder, despite their intentions, and they tell you failing to BF made them depressed and affected their mental health then perhaps you could excuse them some emotive language without jumping on them. The lack of empathy on here is frightening from a bunch of people who claim to be supportive.

What you actually mean is that you are supportive to those who agree with you and don’t try to point out any difficulties with BF. A tone who does disagree gets shouted down or belittled.

Always. The. Same. Problem.

Eh? I said it was insulting to call BF women milch cows.

And it bloody well is!

Apart from that, can't see why anyone would object to my 'tone'.

It’s difficult because I have strong opinions but also have weak writing and comprehension skills. Poor / minimal early years education due to an abusive home life plus complex mental health issues mean I often write in a way that seems to have subtext I don’t mean

I wouldn’t want to feel I can’t comment though. Could it be a case of misunderstandings? I can’t see any nasty attacks?