Breastfeeding and feminism

[user123098]

Hey
Not trying to be a GF or here to discuss merits of bf or ff but just interested in views - someone said to me tonight that bf is inherently anti feminist as it means men and women can't share domestic and caring load of looking after baby. It's a really interesting point as bf does mean men can't be as involved in feeding, potentially bonding etc
What do you think?

I asked, genuinely, how this pressure for perfection is expressed and by whom.
That's interesting.
I think the current attachment parenting/cortisol produced by crying narrative puts immense pressure on particularly mothers. By promoting the idea that what you do with a baby cpuld have lasting negative impacts on that child as an adult.
It isn't so much about achieving perfection as a parent, more about the idea that failure is easy.
I don't know much about the science behind it but my sense is that it's extrapolating some fairly extreme neglect (e.g. the wire monkey's experiment) to the behaviour of babies in normal family situations (e.g. leaving the baby to cry for a couple of minutes for whatever reason).

The effect is a kind of bogeyman used to keep mothers in line ("if you don't attend to your child's every need, immediately, thereby sacrificing yourself and any life you may want as an independent adult, your child will be damaged!") It seems very patriarchal to me.

PS I did a lot of AP things myself so I am not anti it on the whole, just elements of it.

The alternative, contented little baby style, is equally restrictive on what the mother can do, just in the opposite direction. Becoming slave to the routine.

I do think those are extremes though and most people do something a bit in the middle - no strict routine but not avoiding all crying ever either.

It is unhelpful though and I definitely felt like I had to pick a camp when DC was little.

I've been reading about RIE recently which is a newer approach which seems good but some parts of it are very anti parts of AP which I agree(d?) with so I'm a little bit sceptical about it. But keeping reading.

Quentin - that's a great example.

I also did a lot of AP things: used a sling, exclusively bf, did baby-led weaning, fed to "natural term", never used formula, co-slept, didn't sleep train - because they were easy for me and I am a fairly lazy parent. But I fucking loathe the "flavour" of the whole AP movement and would never want to associate myself with an overtly misogynist cult of motherhood (yes there are plenty of sane people doing elements of AP but as a whole the surrendered wife/mother elements are way too central). So I would characterise myself as fairly anti-AP as a movement because I think the overall impact on women is pretty negative.

Quentin, this is what I mean by nuance, by discussion. Thanks :) Yes, there is a prevailing idea that parenting can fail and that what is done in infancy matters a lot.

I am sceptical that this translates to all or even most mothers as pressure to be perfect. That, I suggest, is a massive exaggeration unless someone can explain how and in what way and when this 'perfection' as an aim for everyone is expressed.

We have had approximately sixty or seventy years of the idea of the 'good enough' parent. Most parents won't have read much theory around the psychodynamics of this, but healthy parenting is a parenting which accepts that perfection is neither possible nor even desirable.

What is done in infancy and childhood does matter. Parents, even those who love and want their children, may damage them in many ways, by neglect, by inability to put the child's needs above their own, by inadvertently passing on their own warped family relationships.

Parents need support and to be enabled to be 'good enough' parents. This goes way beyond banging on about what individuals should or shouldn't do. Just like with BF, the social, cultural and political context needs to be enabling, informative, and non judgmental when possible (I don't think cruel or abusive parents should go unjudged, for instance).

But if the pressure to be perfect is widely felt, and if people think weaning guidelines are pressure to be perfect, then I suggest this is a massive over statement.

Just to support Bertie - vast majority of ppl don't subscribe to any parenting ideology. We should not put ppl in camps. They certainly don't put themselves there.

I think some of the pressure comes from praising aspects that are in many cases luck/ biology.

I had a very easy, quick vb. Bf easily, had a healthy, easy, good sleeping baby. All luck, but by offering praise for 'achieving' the above it implies anyone having a different experience is at fault, or less worthy of praise.

Same for pnd. According to hv my circumstances made me a prime candidate, therefore not having pnd was praise worthy and I'd done very well not to be depressed. Which implies pnd is a failing and new mothers can just decide not to get pnd. It also implies those with otherwise lovely circumstances shouldn't get pnd.

At the same time the really difficult things I was dealing with were ignored entirely. Pressure that those problems were something I should take in my stride.

Tiktok - have you read AIBU?

Are you really suggesting AIBU is a realistic illustration of life?

AIBU is (probably) real people (possibly an unknown number of bots/trolls too). It's a weird internetty concentration of people that encourages some extreme behaviour, but it is part of life.

It seems odd to dismiss stuff you don't personally like or agree with as not realistic, which is kinda what tiktok seemed to be doing with her last paragraph: which wasn't terribly clear - what is a massive over statement? Mothers feeling pressure to be perfect? Reading weaning guidelines as part of that pressure?

AIBU, the Daily Mail, the constant "selfish career women leaving it too late" angle on older parenting, the Christmas surrendered mummy ads - they are part of the world we all live in, like it or not. As are bf zealots who think the mental health of a few mummies is a cheap price to pay for nicer bf tops.

People on AIBU also get carried away with what they're saying and exaggerate, I reckon. I'm sure that there are some people who really are just that bonkers but I think most of it is keyboard rage. I think I might have done it a few times myself.

I think there is a pressure to be perfect.

I give up. I try to pick up the threads of what could be a good discussion on thinking about parenting and the academic ideas that might have filtered across to a wider audience, or perhaps how political etc changes might act as enabling tools, and I am told I am dismissing ideas I don’t agree with and that I should (by implication) base my judgements on Aibu.....

Is it really not possible to talk about this sensibly?

To clarify - yes there are pressures. But a mail columnist ranting about women who’ve left it too late or whatever is not pressure to be perfect.

Sorry to hear that tiktok, as I find a lot of interesting stuff in your posts. But tbh, coming out with "What have you been on, over Xmas??" confused me - is tiktok trying to be catty and dismissive or what here? Why reasonable one post, dismissive the next minute? Eh wot?

So far as pressure I mentioned that reading MN , which is supposed to be a parenting support site, makes me feel glad that my parenting days are long over.

I don't read the specific parenting parts of the forum but AIBU, Chat and FWR is presumably real women talking about real life situations and I just think really? That is the norm now?

Glitter....was I dismissive, catty or what? No, just trying to be funny :) (and missing the mark, it seems),

Also trying to defend myself from the totally bizarre idea that I think there are 'zero pressures' on mothers.

An interesting thread. It's over 20 years since my eldest was born and I put up with all sorts of shit comments while continuing to breastfeed my baby because I wanted to (you're doing that for yourself, what about your husband, she'll never be independent, there's no nutritional value after x months, you'll never get her out of your bed, she'll be feeding through the school railings, you should be getting your body back, you're like united dairies).

It was a defining experience for me in that I chose what to do. I also liked LLL ideas about gentle discipline which helped me feel confident about what worked for us at a time when Gine Ford was all the rage. Other parenting approaches are available! I have friends, family and colleagues who have mixed fed, formula fed and breastfed into childhood and guess what we love/support and respect one another.

It was a great day for me as a manager when an otherwise very competent and assertive colleague approached me about expressing milk at work. She looked unsure, almost ashamed. She was so relieved when I said of course, use the fridge, use the kitchen which has a lock if you want to use it, don't use the toilet, I'll let the rest of the team know that's what's happening if you want.

Obviously I'm older now and grappling with feminist issues around menopause. At work 3 of us are working on a sexual wellbeing project. All around the same age. One of us has had a really easy time, no symptoms at all, periods stopped, no flushes, no change in libido, nothing. 2 are having a dreadfull time with flushes, anxiety, fatigue, memory problems, palpitations, insomnia. 1 person with terrible symptoms takes HRT, 1 doesn't.

Are we are pitted against each other because we have different experiences of menopause? No.

Does it mean menopause is not a feminist issues? No because women's bodies and what they do is seen as disgusting, shameful, scary.

Does it mean that the big pharma companies and commercial interests have no impact on how people experience or are expected to experience the menopause?

Is it hard to interpret the evidence about risks and benefits of HRT? You bet.

A male colleague was telling me about his awful experience of being knocked off his bike. "How's your year been?" he asked. "Bloody awful, I said, "Bloody menopause. I can't sleep, can't remember stuff, exhausted." You'd never know he said. Yes I said. That's why I'm going to tell anyone who will listen.

Sorry for long post. Hope I've not killed thread and that someone gets the parallel I've tried to draw between feminism and breastfeeding and feminism and the menopause

Well tiktok I've recently (in the last year) had a baby and the conflicting info I've been given on many issues has made me feel set up to fail on many occasions. My HV was frankly awful and on more than one occasion told me to do things against scientific best advice and against my own wishes too, and as all the parenting drop in groups were cut by the council roughly when DD2 was born, and we have no family and had recently moved, I've felt very isolated. Mumsnet and real life female acquaintances have been the best and most non judgemental sources of support ( except for one bf support group at the hospital where they moved me to tears by making me comfortable and making me a cup of tea).

I've had hcps swoop in and deluge me with info which made me feel inadequate and as if it's all impossible so, for example " sleep when she sleeps" but also "make sure you're eating properly" and "express milk to give her her reflux medicine" (do you realise how long that takes?) - when, if not when she's asleep since the rest of the time is looking after my other child / washing / feeding / changing nappies)? ALso, "never leave a baby sleeping in a swing / puschair unattended" but what if that's only where she'll sleep? What about sleeping when she sleeps?

My friend found this....so true in my experience. www.swansea.ac.uk/media-centre/latest-research/newresearchfindslinkbetweensomebabybooksandpostnataldepression.php

The best thing I've done is to try and ignore other peoples opinions and do what works for me. Best thing i ever did was start cosleeping. Now I actually get sleep. I was like a zombie and very depressed. Sleeping well fixed that.

Definitely true that a lot of people can be very judgemental and act like what you're doing is the cause of any baby problems rather than the baby themselves having a unique personality and in some cases medical issues that you work with

Cupoftea - your experiences are absolutely typical of the poor support, conflicting advice and lack of knowledge new mothers are surrounded by.

Is there some idea I don't see this happening? It's awful.

You have decided sensibly to make your own way, and ignore the advice you don't trust.

The research linking PND to breastfeeding that did not work out is well known among people in the field. We need more help with BF, so mothers who want to do it have a good experience.

The issue is a feminist one, because it is linked with our biology and the social and cultural context we are in, as women.

The baby books and PND research is a little more dodgy, IMO. It's hard to draw a conclusion that it is causative. Mothers susceptible to PND might well be more likely to be swayed by a book....but I really dislike books that are unsupportive, out of date and judgmental.

Best thing i ever did was start cosleeping. Now I actually get sleep

Co-sleeping was strongly discouraged when I had my son. I resorted to it in the mornings after my husband had gone to work and got a ticking off from the health visitor that it was dangerous.

Personally - and this may be an unpopular opinion - I think the pressure to be perfect comes from within. From what we were doing before motherhood.

I went through round after round of exams from the age of around 18 to late twenties. All very goal orientated, get as close as you can to 100%, get an A, a first, etc. I did professional exams in a profession where annual promotion was initially expected (unless you were woeful) but after a couple of years less and less people were automatically promoted and it was a cat-fight to stay in the ‘A1’ aessessment box and thus get promotion and bonus.

Then I had a baby. And the standard became ‘keep them alive and clean and smile at them every so often’. I found it really really difficult to shift my mindset from goal orientated and getting it ‘right’ to just trying to maintain a minimum standard.

Plus no one was assessing me. What a motivation killer.

I desperately harked after the days of having a set, achievable goal in front of me that when completed would result in praise and validation from superiors. This warped into me chasing some perfect ideal of motherhood.

I don’t know if that’s a feminist issue though or just one of those differences between work and parenting that everyone - men and women - is affected by.