Breastfeeding and feminism

[user123098]

Hey
Not trying to be a GF or here to discuss merits of bf or ff but just interested in views - someone said to me tonight that bf is inherently anti feminist as it means men and women can't share domestic and caring load of looking after baby. It's a really interesting point as bf does mean men can't be as involved in feeding, potentially bonding etc
What do you think?

Well yes - women are part of the system, nothing about "the patriarchy" says that it is a system solely perpetuated by men.

Pretty at Kitty's assertion that how you feed your child/maintain your sanity is some kind of zero-sum game where it's required that some women lose for others to gain. Though it does make some attitudes suddenly clearer.

Oh well, lass. I don’t suppose I can be sure what Kitty meant. I think while it’s true that more ff has an impact on bf, the challenge to change this lies outside individuals - I wonder if she’ll come back and clarify. The way I read it, her view may be no different from mine ie we don’t ask individuals to do anything related to infant feeding that is not in their own judgment the right course of action for them. It’s social changes that are needed, to enable more women who want to bf to have a rewarding and happy experience.

No need to remind me that social change would not have enabled you. I accept that. But it does not invalidate my point.

Hmm I think Kitty's point was unambiguous.

Most other parenting decisions don't have such an effect on others who want to do the opposite though

The "other parenting decision" she is referring to is the decision not to bf/ to stop by. She is not asking for social change so her wants are accommodated but blaming ff for her wants not being accommodated.

I don't think her point was helped much by the comment about NHS resources either.

I would say that the social change that removes the burden of expectation of "perfect motherhood" from women (where "perfect" is a constantly moving unachievable target), actually has to come first though tiktok.

Not saying you can't work on the parts you feel called to in parallel - just that while all the headfuckery around feeding and motherhood exists, there's a limit to how far you can get if you see what I mean?

Where do you see this expectation of perfection being expressed, by who/what and why?

Genuine question. I’m not saying you or others don’t feel it.

I would say that the social change that removes the burden of expectation of "perfect motherhood" from women (where "perfect" is a constantly moving unachievable target), actually has to come first though tiktok

Re moving targets when I was born it would have been the norm to introduce solids after a few weeks; in 1990 NHS guidelines (and the guru of all middle class mummies, Penelope Leach) were advising 3 months- NHS guidelines upped that to 4 months mid 1990s. Now apparently the acme is ebf until at least 6 months.

Does anyone really think the millions of people brought up under the earlier guidelines have worse health outcomes?

Genuine question. I’m not saying you or others don’t feel it

On MN for one place. On threads like this.

Much as I enjoy wasting time on MN I'm glad my child rearing days are long past. I used to think Penelope Leach and her child centered approach could be a bit unrealistic but some of the stuff which apparently passes for normal on MN seems absurd.

I don't just mean feeding but for example at this time of year the angst about creating, perfect magical Christmases or mothers who can't contemplate spending a single day apart from children. Or co-sleeping (which was firmly discouraged in my day)

Lass yes potentially. There has been a huge rise in IBS developing in middle age which who knows, could be linked to introducing solids before the gut is fully developed.

We don't know. We need more research in the area. But to write it off as 'people seem fine to me' misses the point. At a population level there may be a difference.

More is certainly available to support bf than when dd was born. But imo it's the wrong type of support. Or at least first impressions of the bad are putting people off accessing the good. Not just bf, but I've often thought some local initiatives are reminiscent of Christian missionaries educating the heathens. And the heathens round here aren't stupid, if you come across as a lentil weaving mc fool with no grasp of real life, nobody is listening. They'll listen to those they already trust.

Bf isn't being tackled on a general society level. It seems to me that it's often a witch hunt after those that can't/ don't. And no matter how many lovely supportive and genuine pro bf people get involved to help others, it won't change attitudes if people feel bullied into doing it or continuing when they are struggling because of pressure from other less lovely pro bf.

Can I take the discussion in a different direction?

I’ve met a few other mothers who say they don’t want to breastfeed so they don’t get saggy breasts. The implication being that they will stay more attractive to me if they FF instead. Is there an element of vanity/superficiality related to the male gaze around some women’s decision not to BF?

I don't know. I've never heard anyone say that.

I can't think of any friends , acquaintances or family who have not at least attempted to bf. There were varying degrees of enthusiasm, success and endurance but I can't think of any who didn't try at all to bf.

If this is said, I would not immediately leap to the conclusion you have. It is possible that this was done to please themselves. It is possible to be vain about one's appearance just for one's own sake and not for the sake of manpleasing.

some local initiatives are reminiscent of Christian missionaries educating the heathens

Haha yes! So true!

Lass the NHS weaning guidelines have a fair amount of scientific backing, and are agreed with by the WHO and multiple other countries. Research into the Virgin gut is very interesting.

The Department of Health says
Early in 2000, WHO commissioned a systematic review of the published scientific literature on the Optimal duration of exclusive breastfeeding 1,2; more than 3000 references were identified for independent review and evaluation. The outcome of this process was subject to a global peer review, after which all findings were submitted for technical scrutiny during an expert consultation.
1.3 The WHO revised its guidance in 2001, to recommend exclusive breastfeeding for the first six months of an infants’ life. At the World Health Assembly, the UK represented by the Chief Medical Officer supported this resolution and since its adoption, 159 Member States have demonstrated their determination to act by preparing to strengthen their national nutritional policies and plans. In 2001, the UK’s Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition (SACN) stated that there was sufficient evidence that exclusive breastfeeding for six months is nutritionally adequate.

<a class="break-all" href="http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130315211757/www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_4096999.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130315211757/www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_4096999.pdf

The evidence is pretty strong.

What point are you trying to make when the NHS guidelines when I had my baby told women to introduce solids at 3 months?

No one was being told to ebf to 6 months.

The point is that a lot of research has been done since you had your child.

Research happens. Guidelines are changed. That’s how medicine works. What point are you making?

Treatment pathways and health advise in the NHS change according to research. Do you demand treatment according to 90s standards in other areas of health too?

I was pointing out , with reference to slightlyglittermaned's comment about the burden of expectation of "perfect motherhood" from women (where "perfect" is a constantly moving unachievable target), an example of a moving target.

Who said anything about demanding 1990s treatment?

If this is said, I would not immediately leap to the conclusion you have. It is possible that this was done to please themselves. It is possible to be vain about one's appearance just for one's own sake and not for the sake of manpleasing.

It’s possible but in a society where women’s bodies are highly sexualized esp. breasts, I’m not sure we can chalk this feeling up solely to individual acts of personal vanity.

Ah come on. It’s a poor example of a moving target, it’s been the same since 2001.

I am really glad women's right to breastfeed baby whenever and wherever they need to is enshrined in law. I feel cross that so many women report being made to feel uncomfortable doing so. However anecdotally women feel equally judged and tutted at for FF. I wonder why that is? Manspreading or reading Zoo on public transport are far more antisocial in my mind.

I feel that newborns and young babies are largely fed /cared for by women, and the reasons behind why it's women who do most of the childrearing go way beyond BFing as such but are rooted in biology. Ergo, A feminist issue.

Maternity leave and the rights to return to the same job are a good start, but it once again raises the question, thrashed out loads on MN, about why men don't tend (as a class) take the parental leave or become SAHP. I actually think BFing is quoted here as a reason, but it isn't at a population level the reason why men don't do the care of preschool but not infant children, since only 1% or so are BF past age 1.

BF requires the woman to be comfortable enough with revealing skin in public. Because of the way we are socialised and our individual personalities this is harder for some women than others. I feel the socialisation and the view of BFing as immodest by some is a feminist issue.

No one has mentioned the fact that BFing delays a return to full fertility. I don't know a lot about it but I imagine BFing would have enabled women to space their births and wonder whether that was one of the reasons why women continued to Bf until 3 years old or so before contraception was available.

I find it interesting that the weaning guidelines have changed at the same time as paid maternity leave has increased.
Either earlier returning to work was valued more highly than babies health. Or now women are at home longer there is an expectation they can continue to be a milk machine for the baby.
Weaning guidelines (to me) were a lot more stressful than breastfeeding. When I had my first the advice was to wean at 4 months on purees. By my third it was to wean at 6 months using baby led weaning. So confusing.
And controlled crying/sleep training went from being recommended to causing brain damage.
Seriously, all this is a feminist issue because it undermines women, makesctgem second guess themselves, puts barriers between younger and older mothers and the constantly moving goalposts means no-one is ever sure what's going on with any of it.

And at the end of the day most children are happy and healthy whatever parenting we followed when they were babies.

Changing guidelines about weaning - a small part of infant feeding anyway - do not illustrate unrelenting pressure to be a perfect mother.

I still want to know - genuinely - how this pressure to be 'perfect' is expressed, who expresses it is important to be 'perfect', when they say it and why it appears to be so irresistible to some mothers.

Weaning guidelines are not an exhortation to be a perfect mother. They are information sharing and recommendations. They have hardly changed at all anyway....are there many mothers who read weaning guidelines feeling they are all about 'me' being or not being perfect.

And as for women feeling uncomfortable or antipathetic towards BF because of body issues - absolutely. There are studies which show this, and if you talk to mothers and really listen, some will share these feelings.

yes - in the Uk, official weaning guidance took ages (about ten years, iirc) to catch up with world guidance. It did coincide with improvements in mat leave - may well not be a coincidence.

I find it insulting and demeaning for BF women to be described as 'milk machines', by the way. Please don't do it. It doesn't help the existing body issues held by some mothers.

I breastfed myself. I used that phrase particularly to show what the change in weaning ages could illustrate as to how society views mothers I.e. they need to be serving others either by working or by meeting the needs of their children. It could apply to formula feeding as well as breastfeeding mothers.

tiktok do you really not see all the many and varied pressures around motherhood?

I am honestly shocked that you don't see this - I am not sure what anyone can say that will convince you if you really believe there is zero cultural pressure on women about motherhood, becoming/not becoming a mother, how you care for your children, etc, given that you have been on MN for years. Is this really what you are asking or have I misread?

Ok, Quentin, explanation accepted :)

Glitter...don't be shocked. My life's work, practically, has been involved in navigating and studying the social pressures of motherhood, academically, professionally and in other ways.

Of course there are social pressures. Massive ones.

Parenting and especially mothering are social and cultural behaviours, influenced in our case and for much of history by patriarchy.

What I was asking about was this idea that mothers in general are pressurised to be perfect, that they are under massive stresses to achieve a moving target of perfection. I asked, genuinely, how this pressure for perfection is expressed and by whom.
That is quite different from thinking there are no social constraints and contingencies on being a mother.

Hope that reassures you that I am not going crazy here :)

I am asking for nuance, for reflection, and for discussion.

And for goodness sake.....how on earth could any of my posts ever be interpreted as me thinking there is 'zero' pressure on mothers.

What have you been on, over Xmas?? :)