Breastfeeding and feminism

[user123098]

Hey
Not trying to be a GF or here to discuss merits of bf or ff but just interested in views - someone said to me tonight that bf is inherently anti feminist as it means men and women can't share domestic and caring load of looking after baby. It's a really interesting point as bf does mean men can't be as involved in feeding, potentially bonding etc
What do you think?

lass your baby wasn't sleeping because you weren't pròducing enough milk

You were there were you? You were there seeing him not gain weight? How dare you.

I was basing it on what you said earlier
My son was waking up because he was hungry. Once he was ff he was getting enough to eat. There is a myth that every woman will produce enough milk.

If what you yourself write isn't correct then I haven't got a hope in hell of getting your situation right have I?

Anyway I'm not engaging with you further on this because it's clear you can't be rational about it

People are patronising lass and acting like her lived experience is nonsense yet SHE is the one told she's not rational?!

Scientific research is based on large numbers and controlled studies where confounding factors, such as socioeconomic status, can be discounted. There are people who smoke 50 a day and live to 100, that doesn't mean the many many scientific studies that prove smoking causes cancer are wrong. Similarly, one person's experience of breastfeeding does not invalidate scientific research on breastfeeding.

Fuck that was a massive typo way. BAck on page 8 I meant shouldn’t have to justify. I’m should have double checked

A baby with mild tt can get frustrated at the breast and fall asleep before they're tummy is full. As bm is digested more quickly than ff they sometimes wake soon after wanting more. (Breast compressions can help, best is sorting the match and tt)

Ff is easier for baby as they simply don't have to do as much work (but doesn't help to strengthen the tongue or flatten the high palate that comes with a mild tt). So they might be full as well as taking a little longer to digest the milk so might sleep a little longer.

When a baby falls asleep too soon on the breast, the breast gets a signal that that's enough. If a baby kept going or was more efficient due to a more agile tongue and better latch/ flatter palate, they'd stimulate more milk production. And the breast makes more milk (hence power pumping can help stimulate supply).

Switch to ff and the breast doesn't get those signals so supply and demand dwindles and stoops.

The ff makes babies sleep can sometimes work but only in the first few weeks, as long as there are no other issues simply because it's harder to digest (I was led to believe, Happy to be corrected) but the effect lasts no longer than this and over all in large scale comparisons between bf and ff there isn't much difference and none beyond the first few weeks.

Undiagnosed/ un treated Hypothyroidism is a condition that can affect milk production but isn't hugely common in reality. It can be developed a little while after birth too. It has to be pretty bad though I think - my tsh was around 13 at one point and I still had quite a lot of milk.

Lass I would suggest stepping away from the thread. It is apparent that no one here is interested in the appalling treatment of women like you and me who struggled to BF.

Mostly, they seem to be interested in their echo chamber and ripping apart the painful experiences of those who couldn’t BF. Not sure what they’re getting out of it.

for you. It’s shit but you sound like you gave it your fuck all.

I think that all parents make decisions for their children that are not the best. We all make mistakes. Most of the time these decisions are no one else’s business. With regard to bf, people need to stop commenting on women’s decisions. Breastfeeding is feminist but society’s reaction to it is not. Those who do it are discriminated against yet the women who decide not to do it are burdened with guilt.

My friend is pregnant and has started fibbing to strangers who tell her that she should breastfeed. No one asks her husband about his planned methods of parenting. I noticed the same when I had my daughter and I can only conclude that bf is used as another way to guilt women (and only women) in a way that seems socially acceptable. In my experience it seems as though the “breast is best” message, whilst correct, is being twisted into another tool of everyday sexism to undermine women’s choices.

Well put Emmags

Nanny I do care that woman have shit treatment. Some of the work is done to help woman relieve less shit treatment is ensureing 120 of my fellow volunteer counsellor are up to date with safe formula feeding practices to help ensure when they talk to woman they know the correct info, helping share the work of researchers that have shown that bottles are incorrectly marked which can lead to either over or under diluted formula. I also regularly support woman who use formula and need assistance in doing it safely.

However I also want to see the removal of barriers that make breastfeeding harder for woman and getting breastmilk into babies.

QuentinSummers It is normal for bf babies to wake up and need feeding way more often that ff. It doesn't necessarily mean that there was insufficient milk the last time they fed. Formula sates the baby and that is why they sleep longer.

Emmags0309 Most other parenting decisions don't have such an effect on others who want to do the opposite though. If a parent lets their toddler watch lots of TV that will have zero impact on someone else's ability to keep their toddler away from TV.

The more ff babies, the less need for as many bf facilities, less companies making attractive bfing clothes, more acceptance of mums being pushed into going back to work and pumping or stopping bfing.

Also NHS reckons it costs them money so it's other people's business in a way other parenting choices aren't.

KittyPerry, I see your point and I really think that bf should be more accepted. Of course the nhs have a duty to encourage pregnant women to bf.

But still, the pressure to breastfeed from society in general is sexist, even if it is well intended. Women are being made to feel guilty and substandard and are being asked to justify how they use their bodies. This can cause stress at a time when women are feeling vulnerable. Men obviously do not get this pressure. We therefore have an unequal situation.

Perhaps the OP’s friend’s statement about bf not being feminist is based on her own experience? If she felt that the pressure being put on her is sexist but then succumbs to the pressure, she might then feel that she’s doing something that is not feminist.

Kitty Your comment is interesting because it reveals that you think women who FF are pushing our BFers. This is I think the problem with the way we discuss these issues at the moment. My decision to mix feed shouldn’t have an impact on you. And it actually doesn’t.

If mothers could work together to ask for feeding support that was open to all there wouldn’t be this segregation of funding or support (or lack of).

But trying to push everyone to BF so that there is more BF support is clearly not working. Women who FF are not the enemy and are not trying to steal your services. They are just trying to make the best decision for themselves and their families.

There is a lot of tribalism and one up manship surrounding parenting. It is unhelpful and damaging.

It is normal for bf babies to wake up and need feeding way more often that ff. It doesn't necessarily mean that there was insufficient milk the last time they fed. Formula sates the baby and that is why they sleep longer.
I know that, I was talking to a specific poster about their specific circumstances.
Scientific studies suggests that babies sleeping longer with formula applies only for a short period with young babies.
My point was that for parents with babies who aren't sleeping and haven't for a while formula is unlikely to be the answer unless there is an underlying issue.

The ff makes babies sleep can sometimes work but only in the first few weeks, as long as there are no other issues simply because it's harder to digest (I was led to believe, Happy to be corrected) but the effect lasts no longer than this and over all in large scale comparisons between bf and ff there isn't much difference and none beyond the first few weeks

Well again this will be dismissed as an irrelevant personal anecdote to be discounted but we had no issues about sleeping once we switched to formula. I went back to work full time and husband I were both getting a good night's sleep.

Quentin I misread your post as lass your baby wasn't not sleeping because you weren't pròducing enough milk ie that the not sleeping was being caused by something other than hunger. Probably because you had previously dismissed the thing that saved my mental health and preserved the bond with my son as "snake oil"

The more ff babies, the less need for as many bf facilities, less companies making attractive bfing clothes, more acceptance of mums being pushed into going back to work and pumping or stopping bfing

Other mothers have no obligation to battle on with bf because it might benefit you.

Also NHS reckons it costs them money so it's other people's business in a way other parenting choices aren't

Lots of things I don't do or which don't affect me but which other people do or which affects them cost the NHS money for example sports related injuries; infertility treatment; abortion; the cost to the NHS of the treating the glue ear caused by my extreme lactivist friend who smoked around her baby son. I don't go around complaining about these and say it is diverting funds from me.The NHS is swings and roundabouts.

You are also assuming the health issues caused are caused by not bf- whereas there will almost certainly be other considerations such as general health and lifestyle and family income.

The NHS is quite bad for institutionalised mysogyny. I feel like that is a lot of the reason why bf support misses the mark.

Some of the best bf supporters I’ve come across do it for free, or outside the NHS remit.

HVs are very often bullies - Lass has experience of this with regard to feeding, many people experience it in many different areas. I was totally shocked at my first HV, not up to date in her training at all and a total bully. Coming into MY home and talking down to me when I was vulnerable.

There seems to be an assumption that because someone is a woman they’ll provide good support - whereas in my experience an awful lot of the time female HCPs are the worst for disdain towards female bodies and bodily functions.

Agreed batteries. Bf support imo should be along the lines of two midwives, hospital and community, I was lucky enough to have. The message was that if I could get through the first few days and any bad patches then it would be easier for me long term than bottles. (no dp to share feeds). No juggling a screaming baby at 2am whilst making a bottle, no sterilising and bf gives you a hand free that a bottle doesn't. No pressure at all, it was just 'if', with practical advice, not guilt. And when dd didn't seem to be thriving when she got bigger the paediatrician who advised to wean, and if she didn't take to that to try formula on top of bf if I wanted to carry on bf.

Unlike the hv who told me to persevere with exclusive bf, having done so well to bf so far, informed me I just needed more body fat because apparently this, rather than diet is responsible for sufficient goodness in the milk. Gave me a lecture on how bf babies are less likely to be obese/ be ill. And when she later discovered I was weaning her on paediatricians advice berated me, because dd only needed bf. I'd hate to think how she was with a mother who ff or was considering it.

Pro bf professionals like that are the threat to bf and feminism, not mothers who ff or formula companies.

It is important to discuss mistreatment of formula feeding mother. We need to do better. We need health services to do better.
But breastfeeding mothers get crappy treatment too (even when all is going well). My GP told me my partner would have an affair and leave me if I didn’t stop breastfeeding. I was only a month or two off finnishing my treatment for PND&A and was seeking help to adjust some other med that impact my mental health. Woman who are breastfeeding receive that sort of treatment all the time.

They do Jump. Because women generally get crappier service than men from the NHS, and no where is this more obvious than in the services catering solely to wimmins bits.

My bully HV tried to bully me into formula (I went on to bf him for over 2 years). Other bully HVs push bf when it clearly isn’t working. Bullies will bully, same shit different day.

Bf is a feminist issue because being an owner of breasts is evidence of womanhood and marks you down as inferior, therefore suitable to be talked down to - whatever it is you actually choose to do with said breasts.

That’s my opinion anyway.

It’s absolutely not up to other mothers to bf for the sake of other mothers. What a ridiculous idea that no one ever expressed anyway....quite rightly, mothers’ first priority is to themselves and their own babies.

But - getting us back on topic - there are social, cultural, political constraints and contingencies which affect feeding. Many of these can be addressed with social, cultural and political changes. So training of hcps, more resources for community support, control of unethical marketing, legislating so no one is prevented from bf wherever they need to, changing maternity ward practices....all things which are way beyond an individual to ‘do’, could make a difference.

Bf is a feminist issue because being an owner of breasts is evidence of womanhood and marks you down as inferior, therefore suitable to be talked down to - whatever it is you actually choose to do with said breasts.

Yes I agree.
I see MN are currently asking for testers for an Alexa breastfeeding app. Fuck off. No-one needs an app for breastfeeding.

It’s absolutely not up to other mothers to bf for the sake of other mothers. What a ridiculous idea that no one ever expressed anyway

As Nanny pointed out Kitty's comment comments reveals that Kitty thinks women who FF are impactinng negatively on her.

Most other parenting decisions don't have such an effect on others who want to do the opposite though

The more ff babies, the less need for as many bf facilities, less companies making attractive bfing clothes, more acceptance of mums being pushed into going back to work and pumping or stopping bfing

Bf is a feminist issue because being an owner of breasts is evidence of womanhood and marks you down as inferior, therefore suitable to be talked down to - whatever it is you actually choose to do with said breasts

And who is doing the talking down to? It is other women- not men.