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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Follow on thread III - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

407 replies

SophoclesTheFox · 23/12/2017 20:53

I don't know if it has the legs to sustain a third thread, but kudos to perfectly for the impeccable timing of finally answering a question on the second to last post before the thread filled up. Genius.

here is the second thread

As I am now the OP, I wonder if this gives me the right of veto over the resolutions that we apparently made in the Great Accords of 2017?

OP posts:
perfectly · 26/12/2017 12:04

I don't want to be on this thread any more than you want me here but if someone tags me in a post at 11.25pm on Christmas Eve accusing me of being a pedophile sympathiser I am going to come back and defend myself. I don't mind saying it put me right off my mulled wine when I read that yesterday.

A simple apology from SpartonDregs and RogueBiscuit would be the decent thing to do and would mean I would leave you all alone.

BertrandRussell · 26/12/2017 12:32

"BertrandRussell are you actually saying trans women are as threatening to other women as paedophiles are to children? "
No, I'm not.

BertrandRussell · 26/12/2017 12:36

I am saying that a tiny minority of men are paedophiles and we accept that there are restrictions on all men because of that minority. I see no reason why there should not be restrictions on all transwomen because of the actions of a tiny minority. Men accept it-why can't transwomen?

perfectly · 26/12/2017 12:44

I suggest you leave the comparisons well alone. It's seriously dodgy ground.

iamawoman · 26/12/2017 12:46

If we are going to have in legislation that anyone who identifies as female can have access to female spaces isnt this just the same as saying all males can have access to female spaces - is my teenage daughter really going to approach a 50 year old man going into the ladies toilet and ask if they self id as female?? Despite no external appearances of being a sterotypical female - whatever one of those is ??

Ereshkigal · 26/12/2017 12:47

I suggest you find something more edifying to do than being a GF on feminism chat threads.

BatShite · 26/12/2017 12:50

If we are going to have in legislation that anyone who identifies as female can have access to female spaces isnt this just the same as saying all males can have access to female spaces

I don't know why they aren't just honest and say that what they want is an end to sex segregation, as thats whats being asked for. That way people can make up their own mind and will not be swayed by the image of a post op transsexual person...when such a person is very rare in the movement as it stands today. Everyone I speak to about this is fine with the idea of post-op people using the spaces associated with the sex they are mimicking. They cannot comprehend this idea that today dysphopria is not a necessary requirement and that some idiots say their penises are female and such.

Ereshkigal · 26/12/2017 12:52

If we are going to have in legislation that anyone who identifies as female can have access to female spaces isnt this just the same as saying all males can have access to female spaces

That is already in effect the case. The EA prohibits "discrimination by perception" on the grounds of gender reassignment. We need to push for more common sense by organisations and better and stronger legal exemptions for female spaces where women and girls are vulnerable.

perfectly · 26/12/2017 12:55

Erishkigal I'll leave when I get my apology.

iamawoman if a trans woman has transitioned as per the current law and has a GRC to say she is a woman then she is legally able to access female spaces anyway (despite potentially still looking male) so you would be looking to repeal the current law if you didn't want anyone born biologically male to be in the same changing room as your daughter.

I agree the new self ID law proposal is opening this up to abuse but I think this gets lost in the other, less rational arguments.

Ereshkigal · 26/12/2017 12:57

then she is legally able to access female spaces anyway (despite potentially still looking male

Not all. The law provides for exemptions. It is recognised that they are not biological women/female.

BertrandRussell · 26/12/2017 13:03

"I suggest you leave the comparisons well alone. It's seriously dodgy ground."
Only if you don't-or won't- accept the normal parameters of discussion.

iamawoman · 26/12/2017 13:04

Forgive my ignorance but currently wouldnt everyone with a grc have been subject to surgery / hormones and have an outward appearance of being 'female' to a greater or lesser degree.

perfectly · 26/12/2017 13:11

iamawoman I have a friend Julie, born John, who is legally a woman but definitely looks male. FTM is easier to 'pass' as you get facial hair, MTF not so much.

QuentinSummers · 26/12/2017 13:17

I suggest you leave the comparisons well alone. It's seriously dodgy ground.
Why? bert made a perfectly reasonable point. There are multiple cases of trans women abusing children, down loading child abuse images etc. You don't have to look far at all on Twitter to see trans women saying very odd stuff about children and consent (see the Ada Wells thread I linked earlier). There is research to suggest trans women retain a male pattern of criminality post transition and possible are overrepresented in the population of sex offenders.
That's not saying all trans women are like that, any more than pointing out that in the main sex offenders are male means we are saying all men are like that.
Refusing to discuss it means we potentially increase the risk to women and children, I doubt any feminist (or even any rational human being) could defend that.

BatShite · 26/12/2017 13:18

Forgive my ignorance but currently wouldnt everyone with a grc have been subject to surgery / hormones and have an outward appearance of being 'female' to a greater or lesser degree.

No, no surgery or hormones are needed. Just a diagnosis of sex dysphoria and 'living as a woman/man' for 2 years (whatever the fuck this means) and a small charge, which is put aside if you are on a low income. Proposed changes are to do away with every part of this, so its literally anyone who can 'change sex' as apparently not all trans people have dysphoria! How ion earth can one be trans without dysphoria?

Thing is though, transwomen who have a GRC who do look for all intents and purposes, male do tend to use male areas anyway. I have a post-op friend who still uses male areas as they are well aware they just look like a man in a dress and they do not wish to distress female people. Transsexual people seem to actually give a shit about those around them. Transactivists and 'transgender female penis idiots'...not so much

BertrandRussell · 26/12/2017 13:23

Anyway, crime statistics, sport and the privision of intimate care in hospitals and care homes?

BatShite · 26/12/2017 13:24

Anyway, crime statistics, sport and the privision of intimate care in hospitals and care homes?

Never answered. Ever. Never will be. Except for the 'can't everyone just be NICE' type answers.

BatShite · 26/12/2017 13:25

Or on sports 'but what about intersex people!!!111'

Infact on many topic the 'but intersex' arguments crop up. Despite intersex people being asked to be kept out of the whole thing. Trans is not intersex. Some trans people may be intersex (nowhere near as many as who claim to be though...). But trans is nothing to do with intersex.

BertrandRussell · 26/12/2017 13:28

Yes, like Paris Lees constantly banging on about how obsessed people are with loos. A proper smokescreen.........

BatShite · 26/12/2017 13:33

Loos are the least of the worries, but arguments are always dragged back to loos.

RogueBiscuit · 26/12/2017 13:34

A simple apology from SpartonDregs and RogueBiscuit would be the decent thing to do and would mean I would leave you all alone.

Erishkigal I'll leave when I get my apology.

You'd better get really comfy then, your going to be waiting a long time! As for you don't know what Agp is, it's been explained to you countless times.

BatShite · 26/12/2017 13:35

Its easier to pretend to not understand AGP, or to claim (as transactivists do) that its just a made up transphobic term. Than to actually address the problems with it.

RogueBiscuit · 26/12/2017 13:39

Waiting.

perfectly · 26/12/2017 13:53

RogueBiscuit - when SpartonDregs shared that image linking LGBT people with paedophilia you said 'that doesn't surprise me' and you went on to say:

Look perfectly, your gay/agp friends will not EVER be showering next to my partially dressed five year old daughter.

You said gay/agp. The use of slash means gay OR agp which is incredibly offensive to gay people, including myself.

RogueBiscuit · 26/12/2017 14:03

Yes , gay or agp TIMS as you well know. And if you didn't you do now.