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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My neighbour Steve

144 replies

xxnamechangexx · 19/12/2017 21:49

I live in a block of flats.

I've been in my flat for a long time now. It's nothing overly fancy, but it's mine and I worked pretty hard to get it and I've done a lot of work on it making it into a space I can call home.

Across the hall from me is a flat where a group of guys live. They have a lot of friends round and there's always different ones coming and going. I don't really know them but I've had a lot of issues with some of them. Comments, pushy behaviour, that sort of thing.

Not all of them are like that of course. One or two of them even seem quite nice, but some of them have been a nightmare. One or two them of them make me quite glad when I've locked the door behind but you learn to avoid eye contact and get inside sharpish. No big deal I guess.

Some time ago another guy, Steve, moved in with them.

Steve is a bit different to the others.

Most of the men he lives with are fine about that but a couple of them have been pretty dickish about it. He's had some trouble with a few of them and one of them was violent towards him a while back. I feel for him because I know what they can be like. Not all of them - most of them are fine as I say, but one or two of them are pretty threatening and aggressive and I can understand why Steve doesn't always feel safe.

I don't know Steve that well but I've supported him where I can with this. We've talked about how awful they can be and I've given him witness statements when the violence happened. It's settled down since then but sometimes when there's a lot of them or they've been drinking I know he feels unsafe.

So anyway, sometime I said Steve could come to mine when he wanted to. I wanted him to be able to come into mine if it was kicking off again or if it was getting lairy or he didn't feel safe. I know I was taking a bit of a risk here but Steve seems pretty harmless and I understand what these guys are like - after all I've been getting shit from them for years.

So, now Steve sometimes comes into my house. It's not a formal arrangement and to be honest we didn't even really discuss it. I just kind of let him now he could when he needed to and he seemed to understand. We don't really talk, he doesn't bother me he just sometimes uses my space when he doesn't feel safe.

Some of my friends think I'm a bit crazy letting him do this, but it's worked for a while now. I've never had any trouble and in any case, if anything did happen it's my house, I can tell Steve to leave.

I've never needed to though and it's worked fine for ages with no problems.

Until last week.

Last week Steve told me that he was no longer happy with just being able to come in. He said it made him feel like he didn't really belong in my flat. He told me he feels he's more like me than then men in his flat.

I was completely taken aback. Of course, he doesn't really belong there - it's my flat.

So I suggested to Steve that he got his own place. It seemed like a good solution to me. After all, he wasn't comfortable where he was and whilst I didn't mind him using my space it still made me uncomfortable sometimes. I mean it's my flat after all. I’ve worked hard for it.

Anyway, Steve didn't like that idea. He didn't see why he should have to get his own space just because these of the way these men behaved and he really liked my place and he felt comfortable there. He also said he had a lot more friends who had the same issue he was having with these guys and he needed them to be able to use my place.

Steve had a solution.

Steve decided that what I should do was remove my door lock. That way he could in whenever he needed to. As could anyone else who needed to hang out in my place to avoid these men. Locking my door wasn't fair to him he said. He wanted to be able to come in any time he liked. He felt like he belonged there and he was entitled to be there.

Obviously, my jaw hit the floor at this point.

I pointed out to Steve that this was insane. Without a front door lock how the hell would I safe? Anyone could come into my flat at any time. How would this make Steve safe? The very guys he came to my flat to avoid could now just wander in unchallenged.

Steve assured me they wouldn't do that. He pointed out that if they really wanted to come in and hurt me, a lock wouldn't stop them, they would just break in. So, taking the lock off didn't make any difference. The only people who would come in, he told me, was him and people like him. People who didn't want to do me any harm.

Obviously, I told him to fuck off. This was insane. At this point Steve got really upset and starting saying I didn't trust him enough to remove my lock and I clearly thought he was some sort of pervert or threat. I’m not threatened by Steve, but I'm clearly not going to take the lock off my front door and let anyone come in. That's just crazy.

The more I said no the angrier Steve got. The more he accused me of hating him and not understanding how threatened he felt. I couldn't get my head around this. Clearly, I didn't hate him - in fact I always thought I was a bit of an ally. Not to mention I'd been getting shit off these guys for the last 20 years. I wasn't threatened by him, I was threatened by opening up my flat to anyone who wanted to come in. And without a lock, how could I even challenge people. I'd offered an open invitation.

I told Steve it wasn't going to happen.

To be honest, at this point, given the vitriol of his reaction I wasn't even sure I wanted Steve coming in my flat anymore. I told him to go.
I was pretty stunned but I thought that was the end of it. I was wrong.
Steve went to the committee that manages the flats. He told them about how threatened he was and how he needed a safe space. He explained why he didn't want his own space but how mine was perfect for his needs and he belonged there. It was his right.

The committee agreed with him.

Steve, they said, was getting such a hard time from the guys across the hall that they agreed I should remove my front door lock so he could get access to my flat.

I told them about all the issues I had had and how unsafe I would be but they wouldn't listen.

I told them that if I took of my lock the very guys Steve wanted to avoid could just walk in.

That won't happen, they said.

You're hysterical, they said.

After that things got a lot worse. Steve, his friends and the committee started telling me how unfair I was to Steve.

They said I clearly wished him harm and they made up new words to insult me. Every time I told them I wanted Steve to be safe but I didn't want to open up my flat to anyone I was shouted down, told I was a bigot and told I was hurting Steve.

Steve rang my employer and told them I was bullying him and I nearly lost my job. Even some of my friends turned against me.

Next week the committee are meeting to decide if I have to remove my lock. I’m not invited to the meeting. The only people there are Steve and the committee. I’m told this doesn’t affect me so my view doesn’t need to be heard.

Today I heard Steve’s running the committee.

I don’t think I’ll be getting to keep my lock.

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 22/12/2017 01:23

Thank you! I have posted it on my tumblr page.

perfectly · 22/12/2017 07:29

This is such a coincidence as I have a housemate called Steve. He rents a room from me, we’ve lived together for years and get along great.

One day someone called xxnamechangexx came along with a placard and stood outside our house. She demanded Steve leave my house straightaway.

Confused, I went out to ask her what the problem was.

‘Because my neighbour Steve behaved badly toward me, he really took the piss so therefore your lodger Steve needs to leave your house right now’ She replied.
‘But your issue is nothing to do with my lodger Steve, maybe you just have a problem with people called Steve?’ I suggested.

xxnamechangexx refused to go away and kept demanding Steve leave my house. She got all her mates along as well who has read about bad Steves on the internet and they kept telling me to kick Steve out for my own good. When I argued with her she accused me of being a Steve activist and naive to all the problems that Steves were doing up and down the land.
My Steve got very upset and accused her and her pals of being Steve phobic.

I am still very confused and hope one day xxnamechangexx will realise just because one person called Steve did a bad thing it doesn’t mean all Steves should be treated as inferior human beings.

QuentinSummers · 22/12/2017 07:52

You've missed the point as widely as Helen1111 did with her letter to a TERF.
Can't you ever engage with the point at hand?

perfectly · 22/12/2017 07:59

QuentinSummers assume that was directed at the OP and yes I entirely agree.

QuentinSummers · 22/12/2017 08:03

No it was directed at you perfectly

TrojanWhore · 22/12/2017 08:04

If it's a trans allegory, it's a seriously crap one.

Unless the only point of TERFiness is to restrict access to ones own home.

This is nearly as bad a the fake UN treaty concept.

perfectly · 22/12/2017 08:29

If the OP is a trans allegory, it's a seriously crap one.

Unless the only point of trans activism is to restrict access to ones own home.

MentholBreeze · 22/12/2017 08:31

perfectly - the point of the the OP was that Steve was trying to tell OP what she could do in her own flat, for his benefit.

Yours seems to have the point that other people are trying to tell you who to have in your flat. You're both saying that you should get to choose who comes in your flat, and that people outside the flat trying to force people in or out against your wishes is wrong. You are both on the same side.

The difference is that yours is an allegory for these fictional feminists you've made up rather than actually listen to what we're all saying, and OP's is TAs, who really are saying and doing these things, in real life, right now.

MentholBreeze · 22/12/2017 08:34

To be perfectly clear perfectly. We all agree that you can invite whoever you want into your house.

Where we differ is that I feel that I should also have that right, and that you don't get to decide for me.

Ereshkigal · 22/12/2017 09:08

You've missed the point as widely as Helen1111 did with her letter to a TERF.

Hmmmm...

Thermostatpolice · 22/12/2017 09:13

The thing is perfectly, you didn't ask your other flatmates before letting Steve move in.

I mean, we all like Steve. We invite him over all the time. But not all of us want to live with him.

To be perfectly clear perfectly. We all agree that you can invite whoever you want into your house. Where we differ is that I feel that I should also have that right, and that you don't get to decide for me.

YY Menthol it's about consent and personal space.

Snowbelled · 22/12/2017 09:15

I opened this excitedly hoping it would be a feminist chat that wasn't yet another trans thread. Biscuit

perfectly · 22/12/2017 09:55

The thing is, it's my house too. And as far as I'm concerned it's Steve's as well. I don't see why Steve and I shouldn't get a say in whether Steve gets to stay or not. The only basis OP wants Steve to leave and live in a separate place with other people called Steve is because his name is Steve. It seems very unfair.

MentholBreeze · 22/12/2017 10:02

Still missing the point perfectly - your house, your rules, my house, my rules, shared house, shared rules (generally, veto exists but not override, or democracy where you and all your flatmates get to vote on whether steve is welcome)

MentholBreeze · 22/12/2017 10:04

Neither you, nor Steve gets to decide they can live in my house. You only get to decide if Steve lives in your house.

Since I live with DP, I also don't get to solely decide if Steve lives in my house, DP and I discuss it, and if either of us disagrees, then Steve can't live in our house, no matter how much the other person wants it. The person that wants it will have to persuade the one that doesn't (or, in TA's case, generally threaten)

WTAFisthisshit · 22/12/2017 10:06

I think we should all write to our MP's about Steve and ask them what they're doing to protect our rights,that's our current rights and how they're going to improve our rights and get us more rights in the future. Steve and freedom of Speech and debate in this country.

Then I think we should all write to everywhere we shop and ask them for a copy of where people pretending that their name is Steve should get changed.

perfectly · 22/12/2017 10:11

That's fine Menthol and as the sole reason people want to ban Steves from their homes is because they share the name Steve and some Steves have done bad things then I will come to the conclusion they are batshit and I will vote to allow Steve to stay.
Equal rights for Steves!

perfectly · 22/12/2017 10:12

WTAF please do and swap the word 'trans' for 'Steve' it would be gold! Grin

MentholBreeze · 22/12/2017 10:20

That's fine Menthol and as the sole reason people want to ban Steves from their homes is because they share the name Steve and some Steves have done bad things then I will come to the conclusion they are batshit and I will vote to allow Steve to stay.

No it's not - didn't you read the OP? The reason is that Steve now thinks that because he's occasionally been allowed in the house, he has a right to be in the house whenever he wants, and invite all his mates, and make material changes to my security - that's why Steve isn't allowed in my house, because he's a CF and I'm enforcing my boundaries.

MentholBreeze · 22/12/2017 10:21

And now I've been burned by Steve, I'm not going to risk letting Andrew in either - even though I've got no reason to think he won't be nice, because my previous experience has left me unable to trust people to respect my boundaries.

perfectly · 22/12/2017 10:23

Menthol I never said your Steve wasn't a cheeky fucker, I'm just saying not all Steves are like that.

perfectly · 22/12/2017 10:24

Menthol and that is your choice to make, but you have to understand the majority of women don't have a problem with Steves or Andrews so it's unfair to try and ban them from public spaces we all happily share.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 22/12/2017 10:25

To correct Perfectly's amusing 'misunderstanding'

I like Steve and I don't believe all those documented cases of women being attacked and they don't have the right to tell a man they need their own space anyway. AIBU to take Steve round other women's flats and break the door down to let Steve do whatever he wants in there. Who are they to say the flats belong to them? If they don't like it, they deserve all the attacks and abuse they get.

MentholBreeze · 22/12/2017 10:27

Menthol and that is your choice to make
EXACTLY

but you have to understand the majority of women don't have a problem with Steves or Andrews so it's unfair to try and ban them from public spaces we all happily share

How many women have to have a problem with Steve before they're allowed to have spaces without them?

Generally, in my flat mate experience, these things are a veto situation - the vote has to be unanimous to let them in.

You're proposing that if 2/5 flatmates are uncomfortable with Steve kipping on the couch, they should just suck it up because the other 3 like him? That's not a harmonious flat-mate situation at all.

MentholBreeze · 22/12/2017 10:30

but you have to understand the majority of women don't have a problem with Steves or Andrews so it's unfair to try and ban them from public spaces we all happily share

hangon - that sentence doesn't make sense - up to 49% of the women aren't happily sharing. They'd prefer Steve went back to his flat unless invited into theirs