autistic appropriation by trans women

[Autisticappropriation]

NC for obvious scaredy cat reasons. Yes it’s another trans thread. No I’m not articulate or well versed in academic feminism but I do fear for women’s rights and safety.

I’ve noticed with alarming regularity that a large number of recently out trans women are also now calling themselves autistic and that a huge portion of the actually autistic community whether trans or not are becoming highly vocal TRAs.

I am an autistic women, uterus owner, born that way will probably die that way. I feel like I’m being pushed out of all my safe spaces by self identifying trans women who are also now self identifying as autistic. I fought so bloody hard to get a diagnosis and access to the pittance of support that is available for autistic women and now women seeking diagnosis after me may find themselves shunned, silenced or ignored in favour of self identifying autistic trans women. I have concerns on so many levels, not least because of the vulnerability of officially diagnosed actually autistic women and the insurgence and potential influence of highly vocal self diagnosed label collectors.

I’m writing this post because a once quite high profile “disabled” man who bullied me on Twitter and set hundreds of his followers onto me trying to doxx me and shut me up has not only in the past few years become a trans woman but also is now claiming to be autistic. They now claim, along with many other trans autistics to be vocal representatives of actually autistic women worldwide and people are listening... but they don’t represent me or my needs or the needs of so many other women formally having or currently seeking diagnosis. We haven’t been listened to for years and when the opportunities start to arise, transwomen are taking them from us. It’s so hard to be taken seriously as a woman seeking diagnosis and only now are diagnosticians recognising the differences in presentation between male and female autistics, I worry about women missing out on diagnosis because trans women present themselves as representatives of autistic women without having the lifetime experience of autistic women.

I was misdiagnosed as schizophrenic and medicated as such despite never meeting the diagnostic criteria. Everyone agreed it was the wrong diagnosis but nobody knew what else could be causing my life’s problems and so I was parked there are told to accept it. This is not an uncommon experience for many autistic women diagnosed later in life (ie adulthood beyond teens) but it doesn’t appear to be the pathway to diagnosis for transwomen. If diagnostic practices and hard won victories of women to be recognised as autistic are lost due to men appropriating so many areas of their life, I fear women will return to a life of enforced misdiagnosis and heavy sedating medications. I feel so bloody helpless and I’m scared to speak up in my usual arena (twitter) because autistic appropriation and trans domination essentially silences me. I can’t be the only female, feminist autistic concerned about this.

I don’t think I have a point I just needed to get it off my chest and introduce an area I’ve not seen being discussed before.

referring to not too

There's correlation between ASC and gender dysphoria. The adult Autism service where I live had to set up specific trans groups as there were so many. This is for people on their caseload who all have a valid diagnosis of ASC.

They aren't trans people pretending to be Autistic.

Out of curiousity @albadross what would you use the quotes for?

Do people on Twitter need a reason to attack others? Seems like the point of the site.

I don’t think the OP was talking about actual diagnosis but self identification and using that as a basis to claim status of representative of the female community (at least that’s my understanding). Nobody in the thread is claiming that trans people can’t be autistic or that autistic people can’t be trans, merely that there are dangers for autistic women if diagnosis of women, which via the nhs relies heavily on childhood experience (in my case requiring full parental involvement), is developed based on the childhood experiences and behaviours of natal males who only later in life identify as or transition to become women. As the diagnostic criteria for women differs to that for men, it’s not difficult to understand that it may skew the diagnosis and statistic of autistic natal women if natal men presenting as women are claiming to be representative of autistic women in general. It’s not so long ago since it was believed women couldn’t be autistic as it was a male condition, and the situation the OP describes threatens to take us back to those times.

Diagnostic criteria doesn't differ for males or females. DSM or ICD criteria is the same for both sexes.

@Bloopbleep I'll PM you

@Returnofthemackyesitis but those criteria were developed by clinicians working with males.

It is important especially when science and research is involved to record on conditions and biological sex, especially when the condition is more prevalent in one sex than the other. Autism does effect one biological sex more than the other, this can be seen when the condition is accompanied with learning difficulties and the condition cannot be masked, boys are still more prevalent.

I work with autistic people and a lot of them seem to have either very right wing or left wing political views. They tend not to like grey areas and prefer black and white thinking. I could see some them being drawn in by these trans advocate types.

Boulshired - it doesn’t affect one sex more than the other, for decades it was presumed to be a male condition and so female presentation was largely ignored which in turn affected women’s diagnosis. While female diagnoses are growing, it’s only recently that the differences of autistic presentation between sexes has been given more research time & recognition.

Another autistic woman here. Wow, there are a few of us.

I used to use Tumblr quite a bit (terrible website) and one thing I noticed was the hostility to any sort of medical ‘gatekeeping’ and getting a formal diagnosis by a doctor. It is talked about along the lines of, healthcare is expensive and only accessible to the privileged, and self diagnosis is equally valid as you know yourself best. Which isn’t entirely without merit, except when you’re self dx-ing complex mental health and developmental disorders, which necessarily affect the way you think.

Also, ‘if you’re cis, ask before following’. -_- I honestly think Tumblr has played a huge role in the social contagion of the transcult, as well as the appropriation of autism, etc, as badges of specialness/excuses for bad behaviour.

Returnofthemack you’re absolutely right I didn’t mean diagnostic criteria which is the same for men and women, I meant to write presentation of diagnostic criteria which is different.

Oh okay 🙂 personally, I think gender confusion is so frequently seen in people with Autism that we should treat it as part of the Autism rather than what I'm seeing from gender identity clinics which is - 'this person is transgender and of course we know that's common in people with Autism'.

Is it? Or is it that people with Autism are more likely to be confused about their gender as part of their neurodevelopmenal disorder?. Because that's my view but the GI clinics are approving people for hormones and surgery that I don't think should be.

But my opinion is very unpopular in certain circles.

Sporadicspartacus - I didn’t last long on tumblr. The problems with self diagnosed autism have grown exponentially. Initially I fully supported self diagnosis as I understand there are still huge issues of difficulty accessing diagnosis, particularly for women but as someone up thread so aptly refered to label collectors (I’d like to add hunters to this) who move from self diagnosis to self diagnosis becoming more vocal as autistic community representatives, it marginalises those who are clinically diagnosed.

I’ve seen similar happen with other conditions considered more acceptable or even (I hate to say) trendy. An ex-friend found more public sympathy & acceptance claiming to have bipolar disorder instead of talking about her actual diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. She became a very prominent bipolar voice but has a completely different unmentioned diagnosis. She went apeshit at a mutual bipolar friend who questioned her viability as an actually bipolar voice (not publicly questioned fwiw) and very publicly was threatening to destroy said friend and her family across a variety of social networks to the point the friend left. That’s one less actually bipolar voice online.

returnofthemack is it really true gender confusion or is it a situation whereby people with different neurology are experiencing “human confusion” and looking for any kind of acceptance and the radical trans* community are drawing in vulnerable and confused people with an ideology that can be adapted to fit a variety of scenarios? I don’t think your theory is far off the mark but I’d question whether it’s that autistic people are as gender confused as you say or whether they’re finding people who for whatever their personal reasons, are also seeking acceptance from a defined peer group of social outcasts.

I think there are 2 main forces pushing autistics, and more likely undiagnosed autistics, particularly teens and young adults, towards the trans stuff.

Firstly, we tend to reject, ignore or be oblivious to social constructs like gender, unable or unwilling to 'play the game', so we often, without even thinking about it, don't comply with gendered expectations. Well-meaning parents, teachers and therapists often encourage autistics towards social conformity, like sex-role stereotypes, as it's seen as a way of making life easier (for the NTs I guess it does as hiding our autism really doesn't help us at all). As many of us are aware, autistic behaviours and thinking are heavily pathologised. Trans ideology provides a way to pathologise our rejection of gender.

Secondly, our feelings of otherness, the alienation and all the vulnerabilities that go with being an autistic young person (and older too), make us prime targets for a movement that welcomes us and encourages us and gives us solidarity, friendship and what seems like an explanation for why we feel so different, wrong and awkward. I can totally understand why the trans people are so appealing to vulnerable autistics, so until we start properly identifying and supporting autistic children and adults they/we will continue to be vulnerable to this sort of manipulation.

Darth: "for the NTs I guess it does as hiding our autism really doesn't help us at all" - Thank you for this insight. I (NT) hadn't thought of it that way before (I had only seen advice to parents about how to help your child adapt to a NT world, not that learning to adapt might be detrimental for the person who is autistic.)

I don't think it's the 'radical trans community' drawing people in all cases. A lot of the Autistic and trans/confused people who I've spoken to don't know much at all about the radical trans community and would have no interest in it because they're going to forge their own path regardless but that's IME and obviously I can't speak for everyone.

IME it's been more of a 'black and white, you have to be one thing all the other and a male is like this and a female like this' view based on wider societies stereotypes of gender.

So very tall, broad and not stereotypically 'feminine' young women who love world of warcraft or whatever who fancy girls thinking that they 'fit' better as a male.

Same with males who like soft clothing, the less constricted feeling of skirts or dresses and like my little pony (Bronys in other words) thinking that makes them more female.

And some males who perceive that women are more naturally empathic and 'better' at social communication and more adept at reading verbal and non-verbal cues who seem to think that transing to female will make them better at it too. When of course it won't because the reason they struggle with that is because they're Autistic and no amount of hormones or surgery will change that. I feel particularly saddened by that small group.

I think some are probably influenced by stuff online but they tend to be the people that seem utterly confused and veer around between genders and non binary/gender fluid/whatever the latest is.

So one week they want to be called a different name and are dressing in a certain way and it changes all the time. Sometimes it's a 'mash-up' of different things representing gender stereotypes. But they're not (currently) seeking assessment with GI clinics thank God as I have very little respect for their assessment processes from a clinical perspective.

I'm not sure Mack that those shouting loudest about self-ID (and they do shout loudly) are going to present at clinics so you won't encounter them unless you're active in online social spaces.

It is very difficult being an autistic woman in autistic spaces at the moment unless you fully embrace the cult of trans.

I'm not Autistic so I'm sure you're right, I was just commenting on my observations of people with Autism who are also identifying as trans or just seem to be confused full stop

I love this conversation. I think the issue is a lot of things and that part of it appropriating and part of it is how much easier for people to recruit, for lack of better word, autistic people to causes when we don't have very strong boundaries. CaseyJeanC, who is a detransitioned autistic woman, and I think a lot of fit makes sense for me.

The black and white thinking as others mentioned. and how a lot of social media sites works against us. I've seen it repeatedly, people being told "if you've felt X, you must be Y" and that happiness will only come through admitting and living as Y and that that is the only ethical route because if you don't you're harming people, and the silencing rules of if you want to be good, you can't listen to/read/retweet/reblog/repost those people. For me and other autistic detransitioners I know, this sort of BITE model mindfuck seems to really get under all the things we've used to cope and been taught so the link that I've heard about for a while now, I can totally see.

On the appropriation side, I think some of it is label collection, some of it is wanting an excuse for doing something rather than owning up to it which really frustrates me, and some I think are, like the above convinced that because they've felt/done something on one of the many lists, that that is them because that's the message that is everywhere. I mean, I've had a trans woman come up to me, tell me how happy she is that I'm "out autistically" (I'd flapped my hands with my kids, one of my kids wears ear defenders - she loves those things - I think those are what was meant by that) and told me how she had suspicions but didn't match much of "the lists" until she'd read the "women's lists". Seemed very sincere, genuine, trying to be nice...but I think it's the "if you feel it..." and the rules around discussing anything to do with gender or identity that makes it hard to put boundaries in place at the moment which is hurting so many people.

returnofthemack I won’t even pretend to understand what you wrote about gender there but I get the feelings bug I don’t quite agree with it. It shows either a very old fashioned understanding or very little understanding of autism.

I would also like to point out that the autistic community don’t use person first language very often. We are not “with autism” most of us are autistic. You cannot separate the autism and the person, you don’t say with gayness or with blackness. Autism isn’t a handbag you carry with you. If as you appear to be saying, you come from some kind of clinical background, you should be aware of these preferences in laungauge, if not, you now know.

DarthVaper your explanation is so much better than mine so yeah, what you say!

Thanks Bloop, it's something I wish I could write about publicly but I am not strong enough to weather the inevitable shitstorm.

I am extremely grateful to, and in awe of, gender critical autistic women who are speaking up.

Growing up I was definitely confused, but I can't remember it being in a black and white way, ie. I wear non-feminine clothes, I prefer typically male activities, I have short hair, I wear no makeup, therefore I am a boy, it was more the dawning realisation that I was wrong, I didn't stand a chance of fitting in because everything about me was wrong. I tried to conform but couldn't get it right. I can't remember thinking at all that I must be male.
If I was growing up now, with social media telling us that boys can be girls and vice versa, I would probably have a lightbulb moment and believe fully that I was a boy. Growing up with an absence of Internet meant I had to, to a certain extent, work things out for myself and reach a point where I knew who I was, although with hindsight that was impossible until after I was diagnosed, and I'm still working stuff out that ideally should have been worked out years ago!

In the 90s I remember a local school having an "epidemic" of anorexia, so many girls in one particular school developing it. Nowadays I see whole swathes of girls suffering from anxiety, and in some schools lots of girls deciding they are boys. It's obvious to me that there are groups of vulnerable girls who are going unidentified and are having mental health issues in various presentations, and it makes me wonder if they are on the spectrum, and makes me strongly think that CAMHS and other services that support them should really gen up about autism in girls, because I don't think we're even seeing the tip of the iceberg yet, and if they are autistic NT strategies may not fully help them. Allowing people to change their gender is all well and good, but as part of a decades long pattern it would be interesting to know what's really going on and if, as I suspect, it is all connected.

Thank you for the posts on this thread, fascinating. My DD is 19, identifies as male and was diagnosed with autism this year. I recognise so much of what you all have said in her. I do think that before this era she would have struggled with this and then come to her own conclusion. I fear now that "being trans" is seen as a innate in born thing, she will be funnelled towards medical treatment.