autistic appropriation by trans women

[Autisticappropriation]

NC for obvious scaredy cat reasons. Yes it’s another trans thread. No I’m not articulate or well versed in academic feminism but I do fear for women’s rights and safety.

I’ve noticed with alarming regularity that a large number of recently out trans women are also now calling themselves autistic and that a huge portion of the actually autistic community whether trans or not are becoming highly vocal TRAs.

I am an autistic women, uterus owner, born that way will probably die that way. I feel like I’m being pushed out of all my safe spaces by self identifying trans women who are also now self identifying as autistic. I fought so bloody hard to get a diagnosis and access to the pittance of support that is available for autistic women and now women seeking diagnosis after me may find themselves shunned, silenced or ignored in favour of self identifying autistic trans women. I have concerns on so many levels, not least because of the vulnerability of officially diagnosed actually autistic women and the insurgence and potential influence of highly vocal self diagnosed label collectors.

I’m writing this post because a once quite high profile “disabled” man who bullied me on Twitter and set hundreds of his followers onto me trying to doxx me and shut me up has not only in the past few years become a trans woman but also is now claiming to be autistic. They now claim, along with many other trans autistics to be vocal representatives of actually autistic women worldwide and people are listening... but they don’t represent me or my needs or the needs of so many other women formally having or currently seeking diagnosis. We haven’t been listened to for years and when the opportunities start to arise, transwomen are taking them from us. It’s so hard to be taken seriously as a woman seeking diagnosis and only now are diagnosticians recognising the differences in presentation between male and female autistics, I worry about women missing out on diagnosis because trans women present themselves as representatives of autistic women without having the lifetime experience of autistic women.

I was misdiagnosed as schizophrenic and medicated as such despite never meeting the diagnostic criteria. Everyone agreed it was the wrong diagnosis but nobody knew what else could be causing my life’s problems and so I was parked there are told to accept it. This is not an uncommon experience for many autistic women diagnosed later in life (ie adulthood beyond teens) but it doesn’t appear to be the pathway to diagnosis for transwomen. If diagnostic practices and hard won victories of women to be recognised as autistic are lost due to men appropriating so many areas of their life, I fear women will return to a life of enforced misdiagnosis and heavy sedating medications. I feel so bloody helpless and I’m scared to speak up in my usual arena (twitter) because autistic appropriation and trans domination essentially silences me. I can’t be the only female, feminist autistic concerned about this.

I don’t think I have a point I just needed to get it off my chest and introduce an area I’ve not seen being discussed before.

Cliques that’s it exactly. I don’t perform mental distress the way I ‘should’, so it took a long time to be recognised as a real problem by the professionals. I went through a raft of diagnoses, depression, anxiety, BPD and then Bipolar 2. None have fitted exactly although bipolar and its treatment have been the best fit. I keep coming back to Aspergers though. DD has a lot of traits as well.

Thanks for the link.

It’s really common for women to have been diagnosed with many different mental health issues before finally getting an autism diagnosis. Bipolar is also a relatively common co-morbid.

I always score really highly on the online tests,especially the ones tailored to women/girls. But I’ve never been brave enough to pursue it. I think I’m mostly scared of being laughed out of the doctors office.

It is so so helpful to share experiences though.

Thanks for this thread, and sorry for the merail.

Bloody hell. Thanks for all this.

I guess that’s why it’s easier to communicate on a forum? Because social cues are unnecessary.

I knew when I wrote that recognising all the social cues was exhausting that it wouldn’t be anywhere near as difficult as having to learn them.

I have, like most people, a need to be understood. And I find that writing makes it much easier. I don’t get tongue tied, I can choose my words carefully, I can look up synonyms if I’m repeating myself.

And I can delete it all and start again!

I’m reasonably good communicator in real life, but better online for all those reasons.

And I, too, set a lot of store on being straightforward.

My youngest son is not autistic, but he does have certain characteristics which used to make me wonder. He is incredibly literal. To the point of ridiculous misunderstanding. He’s not very empathetic. And he gets obsessions. He is musical and creative. Fussy eater, fussy dresser.

He also has snow vision?

But he’s also very sociable and can communicate well. Which I believe is a reason to think he is not at all on the spectrum.

But it has taught me to be explicit in what I say to him. And to give him some extra social skills, like asking other people how they are. And listening to what they say. It improved his popularity at school.

The reason I’m saying this is not to say that, oh look, lots of people have autistic traits, but because it has taught me personally to communicate in a way that is not ambiguous.

I can imagine people saying oh my husband isn’t empathetic, he must on the spectrum is nothing short of infuriating to autistic people.

Thank you for this information. It’s very useful if you come up against a person who seems a bit off, to suddenly wonder if there is a jolly good reason.

Great to have an ear, Datun. I’m very sociable. I love people, but it takes a lot out of me. I also have loads of empathy (many autistic people have more than the usual amount), but don’t perform it in the same way, so it can be mistaken as having none.

I much prefer writing, since it levels the playing field. None of us can assume the tone, we only have the words, which makes people tend towards being explicit in what they say.

If the whole world was careful to say what it means, I would be far happier.

I do have social needs, but they are more seldom and purposeful, than little but often. I need people, but I also need time to rest my overworked brain.

This is so interesting to me. I have a close friend who has had so many problems with Bipolar, and in the past she has had the ability to persuade doctors that she is fine to be discharged when she isn't.

But from reading this thread I now realise she has many autistic traits, particularly from the aspergirlsociety table. However, she does have very good social skills. Is it possible for autistic women to have the ability to learn social skills from other people? She is very interested in other people's lives and always asks people questions....

She is not trans, she is married, but has no interest in fashion/make up, and is happiest getting muddy in the woods and climbing trees!

Raisins, yup. Many autistic women mask and mirror really well. People are usually surprised to find out that I’m autistic. When I’m in public I “perform”, if they could see me when I’m at home, and can behave in my natural way, I reckon they’d be a lot less surprised

raisins I’m NT passing in real life socially but at home it’s a different story completely. It’s easy to mask because girls are taught and expected to be sociable from birth in a way boys aren’t. The most freeing thing about diagnosis was the permission it gave me to take my mask off!

It's part of why I wear make up - my socialising mask. I'm fine without it at home, I'm not bothered by my skin or anything, but if I go out its like stage make up that I put on to perform.

This thread is fascinating, and heartbreaking. I'd heard before that women present differently with autism to men, so can imagine having men pretending to be women claiming to have autism would skew perceptions further and make it even harder to get a diagnosis. The knock on effects are huge.

As an aside, that performing pain piece has given me chills, because it's so close to my own experience of communicating pain.

"I love people, but it takes a lot out of me. I also have loads of empathy (many autistic people have more than the usual amount), but don’t perform it in the same way, so it can be mistaken as having none."

That makes a lot of sense to me, Cliques. I have a friend who is autistic, and she cares very very deeply about her friends and how they feel about things, and very much wants and needs social interaction with other people. She's just not always terribly good at it because (late diagnosis, somewhat odd family) she doesn't mirror NT people's social interactions very well and either comes across as stand-offish (some of the time) or over-shares way too soon (other times). Which makes it very difficult for her - a great shame as she is a very nice person.

One incident which really brought it home to me just how different her world was from mine was when my DS (then aged 3) tried to engage her in a game of peek-a-boo, and she clearly just didn't get it.

'Identity' is a social construct that is gendered, socially, culturally, geographically, historically etc shaped and is alien to many autistics. My 11 year old son finds it difficult to associate with 'human' and so is taking this to a species level. Social media means that he believes he must be a 'furry' and has created an alternative 'fursona'. I am hoping that neuro-atypical can become a positive social identity for the non-social.

DarthVaper I was going to say similar, about having to say how we feel, and believe what we are told. This is one of the main difficulties I have faced, mainly for my children, because they would say they weren't fine at school, but because outwardly they looked fine and happy, they weren't believed. I think it also created difficulties for me because in situations where normally I would be expected to appear distraught and not in control, I came across as unemotional and having rehearsed what I was saying (which counts for most of what I say, resulting in me being able to talk confidently about very things).
I find NT people can be tricky to communicate with because they can be very vague, feelings wise and when telling me things. I think I can be annoying when I need more details to be able to cope with situations, but with autistic friends they either give that level of detail anyway, or are understanding if someone needs more information.
When I go to the Drs I step into a calm confident role, so a couple of years ago when I was going through some tricky mental health stuff, no-one could help because my demeanour didn't match what I was telling them. It was only after my diagnosis that one gp learnt more about women and autism and was then willing to help.

Crikey, I do feel very much for what you guys are going through.

I suppose NT people who read signals, can’t tell the difference between someone who is lying and someone who just looks like they’re lying because they’re not presenting in a way the NT person understands.

BUT HCPs should absolutely know this! If you say you are autistic, then it’s all about the words.

I have a DD who is not diagnosed with autism but as having Autistic traits. Mainly because she can mask and mimic social norms from her peers. We couldn’t face fighting for a full diagnosis for various reasons.

Autism in girls and women presents very differently due to factors which include socialisation.

My DD is very fixated on her pursuits which do fall into stereotypical “male” domains. She gets very confused when —stupid— people tell her these are for boys and she went through a period of questioning whether she is actually a boy because her favourite colour is blue and she is planning a STEM career path. My DD is very vulnerable to the trans ideology and I try to prepare as much as I can but I dread her being sucked into the trans narrative of pink and blue brains.

The appropriation of the self ID brigade into trans dogma is very worrying.

Scorbus can you talk to her about it? My teenaged DD isn't diagnosed, but I can see her in so many of the comments here by these lovely women in the thread. She hasn't been diagnosed because the GP didn't believe us, batted us back to the school, and the school didn't want to know. I'm considering going private, but DD is happy (more or less) with her friendship group and hobbies etc. I parent her as if she is autistic and our relationship has blossomed as a result.

Anyway, we've talked at length about the trans issue, because I want her to fully understand the complexities of the situation (well, as best as she can, at her age and capacity. I'm not sure how much I fully understand, tbh). I've been as clear as I can, and this link to autistic teen girls has been talked about, but I haven't realised the full scope of it.

She doesn't present as a "girly girl". She doesn't care about makeup, fashion, boys (unless she's shipping some obscure fanfic), etc. She likes what she likes, but she understands that she's still female regardless. Thank God.

My DD is preteen so I’m going for the slowly but steadily route and exposing to the many brilliant women in her (current) chosen field of interest. Seems to be working as she’ll say “I can do this because has got to the top in this field and she’s female like me”

I am finding this thread fascinating, if scary in its implications. Thanks for sharing so many different perspectives. I have a 13 yo dd who I increasingly suspect has Aspergers. She's always been hyper sensitive to noise, food, textures, temperatures etc. She loves rules. Recently she tells me that she hates being with the others in the playground at lunchtime as they talk and talk, and she feels she doesn't know what to say and it makes her feel extremely anxious. She goes to help out the library as much as possible. She is fine one to one with friends, but worries a lot about everything. Everything has to be in its place, she doesn't like collaboration type stuff at school as the others don't do it "right". She will restart a piece of work if she makes a small mistake. The list posted above resonated a LOT with me. Obsessions - definitely. A succession of them. If she has a bad day she will catastrophise wildly. She walked home in the snow the other day and it was like the world was about to end.

You have my sympathy OP, as a lesbian I know what it's like to have your identity, safe spaces and community appropriated and wrecked by transactivists.

Although I was aware of the autism/trans link, I hadn't thought of all the implications of that - or that it might not just be a case of autistic people being vulnerable to recruitment by the TRAs* but also TRAs appropriating autism (linked to the trans-disabled movement?).

(*A friend of mine recently went on a training course on Islamist and far right radicalisation where they were told that autistic young men are particularly vulnerable to being groomed and recruited online - I don't know why they can't see the similarities here.)

This has also reminded me of an incident a while ago at an LGBT group where an autistic lesbian woman got thrown out for asking questions about trans stuff. She wasn't being critical or trying to challenge it in any way. She just didn't understand it and thought that the reason she was struggling to understand it was because of her autism so she should ask some questions about the bits that didn't make sense to her so that she could understand it properly. (Obviously, the real reason she didn't understand it was because it doesn't make any sense but everyone else has picked up on the social cue that we are supposed to ignore that and not think about it too hard...). A few weeks later I was present when she had a conversation with one of the (trans) organisers and she was really apologetic but also saying how upset she had been by it. The response was all about how difficult it was for trans people, what problems they have in their lives, how upsetting it is when people don't say exactly what they want them to say etc. There was just no acknowledgement that she was also a human being with her own problems, feelings etc - just total self-absorption.

There does now seem to be more talk among transactivists about trans people being more likely to be autistic then the rest of the population (obviously no questions of why that might be) and groups starting to be set up for autistic trans people and I'm wondering if that is a grab for (even more) power, influence and funding.

Some of the LGBT groups I used to attend gave out equality monitoring forms to attendees, and one used to say that we should fill in all the sections on disability/religion/caring responsibilities etc because if they could show that they had a lot of people in a particular category they might be able to get some extra funding for it. Therefore, linking themselves to autism and having events, projects or groups aimed at autistic trans people might get them more funding that was intended to benefit autistic people (or more generally for disabled people) but can instead be used to further the transactivist cause. Ditto even more power and influence if they are seen to represent a significant and particularly oppressed (trans) section of the autistic or disabled population.

betti I’m in an autistic group on the book of face where a researcher posted a link to a questionnaire for their dissertation on trans and autism with highly loaded questions (have you ever felt more like a boy than a girl? have you ever wanted to be the opposite sex? type things) and no possibility for “grey area” answers. The problem for me was that questions were skewed towards giving trans positive answers. Who hasn’t thought about what it’s like being a man for a day? An autistic would give a literal answer “yes” but no option to say “once when I was five” or “for a minute once last week”. The results will therefore look like autistic people are all gender confused in some way or another. The problem with trying to identify true prevalence of autism and trans comorbidity within research is that there will be accusations of transphobia if it doesn’t fit the TRA agenda or potential for persuasion (radicalisation) by TRA which would be unethical. As trans scope widens it will be hard for anyone to not be pigeonholed as trans in some way or another. Where you get vulnerable people looking for societal acceptance, grooming seems an obvious next step by those claiming to offer acceptance and safety and belonging. But why? To me it seems a step to far to make that link. Maybe I’m being naive but I can’t believe others also looking for acceptance would behave that way... but maybe they would. Oh I’m getting confused with what I’m trying to say now...

There has been a lot of government money available for autism (groups and organisations rather than individuals) and lots of people have been battling for their share of it, very few have been actually autistic groups or have actually autistic representation within the groups. It would be interesting to know if money was a motivating factor.

There does now seem to be more talk among transactivists about trans people being more likely to be autistic then the rest of the population (obviously no questions of why that might be) and groups starting to be set up for autistic trans people and I'm wondering if that is a grab for (even more) power, influence and funding

I suspect it is absolutely that. Not just money, but visibility, power and the chance to take over yet another women's space.

I HATE leading questions, they create an issue. Are you in pain? Yes, probably, a bit, now I come to think about it. As opposed to How do you feel?

It is religious nonsense being foisted on us and why are people not questioning it??? Grrrrr

OP why on earth did a disabled man attack you?! Who was it?

I share all these concerns as a late diagnosed autistic woman who has never understood gender and has fallen into all sorts of identities because I'm easily influenced.

I hadn't thought of the effect on diagnosis for women so thank you for highlighting that to me - I'm vocal on Twitter but also scared and that's massively uncomfortable for my fairness-o-meter.

Does anyone mind if I use a few anonymised quotes from this thread for something?

@Autisticappropriation Sorry not to have replied to this sooner. I wasn't referring to the extreme male brain theory and apologies if my hastily, badly written post implied that. I've been diagnosed as an adult with ADHD (which is why I have an interest in both the lack of diagnosis and misdiagnosis of girls with ADHD or Autism) and working memory, putting the thoughts in my head into spoken and written words, fails me too often.

Bio-markers or brain activity might have been a better words to use in my post than brain types. I was thinking of this article when I wrote my post: Autism - it's different in girls but that may well have been debunked by now too and if that is what you were referring too, please accept my apologies.