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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

A letter to the TERFs

653 replies

Helen1111 · 13/12/2017 18:36

__

To the women shrieking transphobic abuse on Mumsnet, in the name of women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, when the world you wish for has come to pass, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is. But they can’t or they won’t, because they think that denying her the right to be a mother somehow gives them more rights or keeps them safe.

Remember me when your trans neighbour, who is waiting to have children before he starts hormone therapy, gives birth, and feels vulnerable and exposed, because the one person who would truly have been able to understand how he feels (and the best midwife on the ward) has been drummed out by transphobic haters who call her "a man in a dress.". Remember me when the doctors refuse to let your trans cousin see a female doctor, because they won’t record her sex as ‘female.’ Remember me when they laugh at her genitalia, when strangers ask to see what’s under her dress, when they force her to show them, even though her body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because transphobic mothers won’t allow her to run in the girls' race, but she can't go into the boys' changing rooms for fear of being beaten, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, she will never be allowed to compete, or even if she does, people would never accept her victories.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis.

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. She’s put in the hours, she’s worked so hard, she knows she deserves it. And the position goes to Lola, who has spent the last year subjecting her to transphobic bullying her at every opportunity, and making her life so miserable that she’s considered suicide more than once. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have surgery, or to recover from the latest transphobic beating she received when walking home, (though either of them could get breast cancer because it doesn’t just affect people who were born female).

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for trans men and women being raped, murdered, beaten and driven to suicide are on the increase, and that, not only did you do anything to challenge or prevent this, but you spurred it on, in the name of women’s rights. Remember me too, when vulnerable trans women, who look for all the world like you and me, are locked up in male prisons and cannot escape, even though they are imprisoned with the very people who abused them and drove them to the edge.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, and he tells you that this was the first time he ever felt like there was a truly place for him in the world. But then his teacher told him it is wrong and immoral to be like this. And you realise that all this time, when you preached transphobia, you were teaching others that your son was wrong, was a misogynist in women’s clothing. And you realise that your son, your wonderful, unique, son, will only be happy when you accept him as your daughter. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that your son is depressed, that he is being bullied by people who were once his friends, but she doesn't want to have to involve their parents in this, because it’s really just a lifestyle choice and people should be free to tell him what they think of him, after all it’s really just protecting the rights of the girls in the class. But you are afraid – of yourself, your son, your friends, and you don’t know what to do.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transphobic friends, the ones who called trans women “six foot men with stubble in a dress” and yet still claimed these ‘men’ were “benefitting from the patriarchy.” Look around and maybe you will finally see that this has cost trans women everything, it has made the world a harder, crueller place for them, and yet they still did this. Despite the odds, the pain, the abuse, despite never being considered to be one thing or another, they still chose to live as women.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for all our rights. Fighting to tell you that you do not do this in my name. Fighting to undo the damage.

Watch your own backs, we’ve got ours.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
BarrackerBarmer · 14/12/2017 12:49

so good it bears repeating:

"What in earth makes you think that a woman who has just spent the last week with being fisted by someone to try and get their labour started, then spent 3 days in excruciating pain while fuck all happened, has then had their baby hauled out of them with a pair of giant BBQ tongs while the consultant had one foot up on the operating table, is still in a tonne of pain, is struggling to breastfeed and is being manhandled by a midwife to get their baby to latch, cannot shit without worrying they they are going to split open from back to front, is wearing an adult nappy which is stopping clots the size of a fist splattering onto the floor, is going to give a shiny fucking shite about someone in the next cubicle who is wallowing in self pity because they didn't get to experience any of that?"

@Thehairthebod Star

Datun · 14/12/2017 12:49

ringle

Here is the original report by Maria Miller. It’s worth noting that the first people in the index who submitted evidence (Action for Trans Health) belong are the trans group who hit a 60-year-old woman at speakers corner prior to liking a post on social media that said let’s go and fuck some terfs up. And their manifesto demands that all trans-prisoners be released, drugs be available across the counter, and that trans-people be trained in the art of genital surgery. Honestly.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/390.pdf

Here is a link which highlights the bit from the prison service predicting that men will pretend to be trans-to get transferred to the female estate.

fairplayforwomen.com/prisons/misgendering-double-rapist

MotorwayMingebag · 14/12/2017 12:51

*Motorway Mingebag

That's wrong*

It really isn't.

I was responding to a PP who appeared to be claiming that under the new law any male rapist could self-declare as female and be immediately sent to women's prison no questions asked. I believed that to be a reductive and misleading statement that could not go unchallenged, not least because nobody knows what form the new legislation will take yet.

I believe that whatever model of self-declaration is adopted under the new GRA it will be based on workable solutions found in other countries. Self-declaration works in these countries and it provides appropriate checks and balances whilst also respecting the dignity and privacy of our trans brothers and sisters.

I am very familiar with the Martin Ponting/Jessica Winfield case and I can tell you that it was a long process before that individual was put into a women's prison. It did not happen overnight and without the appropriate risk assessment. There are policies and processes currently in place around the handling of Transgender prisoners that are there specifically to protect natal-female prisoners. Those same policies will remain even after any GRA reforms. Common sense and respect for all human life is not going out the window.

Your links to the scaremongering Daily Heil article and the Nicola Williams study (known to be full of false claims and produced for an organisation with an anti-trans agenda) do nothing to persuade me that my original post is wrong. I stand by it.

LangCleg · 14/12/2017 12:57

ringle

Here is the full written evidence from the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists to the Transgender Equality Inquiry:

data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19532.pdf

As Datun noted - you can see that the original written evidence witness lists to the inquiry included gender critical feminists, gender critical trans people, and women's organisations, in addition to evidence from the transgender lobbies. The only groups invited back to give oral evidence in person were representatives of the transgender lobby groups. The only evidence in the final report came from transgender lobby groups. No critical views, including the warnings from the medical professionals, were included in the final report. It was a whitewash.

BatShite · 14/12/2017 13:00

I am very familiar with the Martin Ponting/Jessica Winfield case and I can tell you that it was a long process before that individual was put into a women's prison. It did not happen overnight and without the appropriate risk assessment. There are policies and processes currently in place around the handling of Transgender prisoners that are there specifically to protect natal-female prisoners. Those same policies will remain even after any GRA reforms. Common sense and respect for all human life is not going out the window.

Given how Ponting turned out, the checks that were apparently done were clearly not adequate then.

Only solution is if a transwoman feels in danger in a male prison, segregate them for their own safety. NOT shove them in with the females with no thought as to how it will affect them.

We must stop pretending that male people are female, and that its just an unhappy coincidence that males commit the majority of sexual crime, and near all violent crime. We need to start caring about the safety of female people.

BatShite · 14/12/2017 13:01

Common sense and respect for all human life is not going out the window.

As for this, 'self declaration' of yourself as the opposite sex is already common sense out of the window.

LangCleg · 14/12/2017 13:02

MotorwayMingebag

Absolute nonsense. There is only one category A women's prison in the entirety of England and Wales. If all the trans-identifying male sex offenders currently in prison (about 60 of them) transfer to women's jails, it won't be far off doubling the number of sex offenders in the female estate (about 80 of them). The female estate does not have the capacity to accommodate them and the chances of new investment in an age of austerity are lower than low. So what will happen is that there will be pressure to underestimate the danger presented by these prisoners so that they can be accommodated somewhere in the female estate. And assaults will follow.

Lancelottie · 14/12/2017 13:07

Self-declaration works in these countries - for whom? Are the impartial assessments of its current impact being done, and published? Will this continue, and will practice change if its impacts are deemed to be too severe?

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 13:08

Dr Nic Williams study was corroborated by the one released the following week by the government.

Ereshkigal · 14/12/2017 13:08

This is probably the most ridiculous, tenuous load of self indulgent, appropriating nonsense I've ever seen. The original post, whether you agree with it or not, actually made a point?

MrGHardy · 14/12/2017 13:09

Unoriginal, boring, showing a total lack of understanding of issues, full of standard TRA brainwash dogma, and a clear threat at the end.

Basically typical misogynistic TRA bigotry.

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 13:12

Here it is. They actually give slightly higher numbers than her estimates...
www.gov.uk/government/statistics/prisoner-transgender-statistics-march-to-april-2016

(Note, neither set of figures includes inmates who have a GRC afaik)

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/12/2017 13:16

Oh please. Risk assessment? What does that even mean? It is enough that someone with XY chromosomes who raped women is put in a women's prison. It seems that Ponting made inappropriate advances to women while in prison - where does that leave the 'risk assessment'?

Love Pink News' take on it btw.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/09/08/the-mail-just-implied-a-transgender-rapist-made-unwanted-sexual-advances-because-she-has-a-penis/

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 13:19

I'll take a wild stab in the dark that the "risk assessment" applied to Ponting being at risk, not the other inmates.

BarrackerBarmer · 14/12/2017 13:22

the Nicola Williams study (known to be full of false claims ...

Beholden upon you to cite your evidence for your claim there.

That study meticulously cited every available piece of data, and explained every assumption, and used such conservative calculations that it undoubtedly underestimated the scale of the issue.

if you think you can counter it specifically, go ahead. The author is a friend to facts and will happily embrace new ones, if you have any.

SophoclesTheFox · 14/12/2017 13:28

that’s incorrect to say that Nic Williams research was wrong. After she released it, the “unavailable” official figures were magically found, and Nic had underestimated. On my phone so don’t have the links. And it’s complete misrepresentation to say that Fair Play for Women is anti trans. Clue’s in the name, really. Will provide the evidence later when I’m at my laptop, but wanted to correct that out of the gate.

SophoclesTheFox · 14/12/2017 13:29

x-post, barracker.

MentholBreeze · 14/12/2017 13:36

Thehairthebod - I only experienced about a 1/3rd that and dear god, that's quite the description - you have a way with words - but I agree - when I had visitors to my sweaty (ward sooooo hot), bleedy, clotty, unwashed self I couldn't have given a damn about anyone but my new son and my first son. Screw anyone else's feelings, let alone if my partner was feeling sorry for himself (he wasn't. Each time it didn't go to plan, each time he was so worried about me and the child I'm amazed he stayed upright!)

Beachcomber · 14/12/2017 13:36

Well the OP lost me at "shrieking" and then made me angry with this anti-woman, narcissistic, misogynistic bullshit :

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is. But they can’t or they won’t, because they think that denying her the right to be a mother somehow gives them more rights or keeps them safe.

Mothers are women. Women are adult human females. Women give birth, transwomen are men, men do not give birth.

That post just makes me feel deeply sorry for the woman in this fictitious couple. The one who has carried and birthed a baby and whose biological reality is being fetishized by the man sitting next to her who wants to erase her.

FFS

DN4GeekinDerby · 14/12/2017 13:36

It's turned into a rant but how about I remember ten, fifteen years ago. I'd already been discussing having a sex change for several years by that point (I first mentioned it to others when I was 7). I'd tried living as a man for a couple years and was very active in the community for a struggling teen. I've been fighting for my life and my rights for quite a while and all those weird stories have done is shown me how far we still have to go...it feels like we're going backwards.

10-15 years ago, I could discuss the difference between sex and gender without concern, without quoting the World Health Organization like a shield (and they've done more for trans health than any TRA group), and social construct didn't mean fiction. People knew that sex was a physical material thing and that fish who could change sex had different chromosomes to humans.

10-15 years ago, I could openly discuss how my Gender Identity Disorder (as it was then) is part of my PTSD and no one would try to call me a bigot for trying to discuss my mental health. People might disagree I have either but it was common knowledge that for many people that trauma was linked in gender issues. Now saying DBT helps my dysphoria is practically blasphemy.

10-15 years ago, everyone in the community knew 'felt like a man inside' wasn't a literal statement even for those with phantom sensations but a short way to explain how the difficult, complicated, messy feelings inside and how we viewed our personalities and the roles we saw in society, and the issues we had with how others saw our bodies.

10-15 years ago, I could discuss the child abuse and attacks and how I was targeted and no one would call me a TERF for discussing how being female played a key role in having someone rape me to, in their words, "teach [me] a lesson" for asking questions.

10-15 years ago, no one denied detransitioners existed even if we didn't use that word. We were part of the community. It was considered not just fine but expected that people who tried to transition would often experience horrible side effects and not everyone would gain anything from it. Transition was considered one of multiple methods to cope, not the be all and end all that must start as early as possible. Back then, passing was about safety, not about finding our true selves. Now, academics have to fight to acknowledge us and every "expert" is shouting we don't exist while reversal surgeries are happening.

10-15 years ago, LGBT meant something, it meant we fought together and stood with each other, we found our place in the world with each other, not in science class, and same-sex attraction was part of our shared experiences - 10-15 years ago that was required as part of the diagnosis! Now, saying I don't want to date someone with a dick has people calling me a bigot, a cool lefty way to call us disgusting for who we love.

10-15 years go, every trans woman I knew then would shoot you down so fast if you seriously called her a lesbian. They would explain to you the difference in sex and gender. They more than enforced the honour system with toilets with the priority of not making women uncomfortable. Toilets were not there to prove our identities, they were there to piss and shit and wash hands and get out fast. We watched the doors for each other and focused on locations that had unisex single user stalls.

10-15 years ago, we fought for unisex, single user stalls for sex role nonconforming people and anyone else so everyone would be safer. We knew that just letting open women's facilities wasn't the answer, we knew sex role nonconforming women, however we identified, would not be safe just walking into the men's.

10-15 years ago, we were openly discussing the issues with hormones and surgery. In details we would weigh the pros and cons with each other. This year I watched a 22 year old buy testosterone blockers and estrogen on her phone while discussing how she's never seen a doctor at all even after over two years of using them because 'everyone knows how bad the waiting lists are'.

10-15 years ago, I was scared to be outed as female and obsessive about passing as a man because I was in the Bible Belt and I worried how I would be "corrected"; now I'm scared to discuss my experiences in case of violent backlash against not just me but my kids.

And over 15 years ago, I was a lone female on an otherwise all male wrestling team in high school. The girls locker room had no showers while the boys had extensive ones. I was just told to go straight home after practice to avoid mat rash and to ice up because no matter the phantom sensations or panics or distress tried to tell me, my female body was not keeping up even only training in my weight class which was the smallest available. The injuries and abuse girls like me suffered helped others to push for girls' teams

As someone who has been in this for more than 10-15 years, it's wasn't us 'TERFs' who weren't fighting for everyone, it's TRA's who have turned their backs on the rest of us to the point people with gender dysphoria are now distancing ourselves from the trans label entirely, not just saying transitioning isn't for us. You don't have my back Helen, you don't have any trans person I know's back with that garbage.

TammySwansonTwo · 14/12/2017 13:38

You don't think there might be something wrong with a "risk assessment" that determines a man who has raped women is best placed in a women's prison? Really?

I'd have no issue with a system where "checks and balances" are made to ensure women are protected. But just saying "checks and balances" doesn't make that so and no one seems able to say what those will be. Seems that the current system is a pretty good safeguard against these issues. And yes, under self-identification laws it's perfectly possible that men could insist on being placed in a women's prison - the point of my comment is that this would be unacceptable and dangerous, so what can be done about this in a self-identification system?

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 13:43

👏 and Flowers DN4

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/12/2017 13:44

DN4GeekinDerby - thank you for a really excellent, moving post. That deserves to have as much exposure as the original 'letter' post. Star Star Star Star Star Flowers. And Gin for good measure.

TammySwansonTwo · 14/12/2017 13:45

DN4 I'm so sorry that you and those like you are being so badly erased by this agenda. It's unspeakable.

genever · 14/12/2017 13:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.