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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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A letter to the TERFs

653 replies

Helen1111 · 13/12/2017 18:36

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To the women shrieking transphobic abuse on Mumsnet, in the name of women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, when the world you wish for has come to pass, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is. But they can’t or they won’t, because they think that denying her the right to be a mother somehow gives them more rights or keeps them safe.

Remember me when your trans neighbour, who is waiting to have children before he starts hormone therapy, gives birth, and feels vulnerable and exposed, because the one person who would truly have been able to understand how he feels (and the best midwife on the ward) has been drummed out by transphobic haters who call her "a man in a dress.". Remember me when the doctors refuse to let your trans cousin see a female doctor, because they won’t record her sex as ‘female.’ Remember me when they laugh at her genitalia, when strangers ask to see what’s under her dress, when they force her to show them, even though her body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because transphobic mothers won’t allow her to run in the girls' race, but she can't go into the boys' changing rooms for fear of being beaten, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, she will never be allowed to compete, or even if she does, people would never accept her victories.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis.

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. She’s put in the hours, she’s worked so hard, she knows she deserves it. And the position goes to Lola, who has spent the last year subjecting her to transphobic bullying her at every opportunity, and making her life so miserable that she’s considered suicide more than once. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have surgery, or to recover from the latest transphobic beating she received when walking home, (though either of them could get breast cancer because it doesn’t just affect people who were born female).

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for trans men and women being raped, murdered, beaten and driven to suicide are on the increase, and that, not only did you do anything to challenge or prevent this, but you spurred it on, in the name of women’s rights. Remember me too, when vulnerable trans women, who look for all the world like you and me, are locked up in male prisons and cannot escape, even though they are imprisoned with the very people who abused them and drove them to the edge.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, and he tells you that this was the first time he ever felt like there was a truly place for him in the world. But then his teacher told him it is wrong and immoral to be like this. And you realise that all this time, when you preached transphobia, you were teaching others that your son was wrong, was a misogynist in women’s clothing. And you realise that your son, your wonderful, unique, son, will only be happy when you accept him as your daughter. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that your son is depressed, that he is being bullied by people who were once his friends, but she doesn't want to have to involve their parents in this, because it’s really just a lifestyle choice and people should be free to tell him what they think of him, after all it’s really just protecting the rights of the girls in the class. But you are afraid – of yourself, your son, your friends, and you don’t know what to do.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transphobic friends, the ones who called trans women “six foot men with stubble in a dress” and yet still claimed these ‘men’ were “benefitting from the patriarchy.” Look around and maybe you will finally see that this has cost trans women everything, it has made the world a harder, crueller place for them, and yet they still did this. Despite the odds, the pain, the abuse, despite never being considered to be one thing or another, they still chose to live as women.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for all our rights. Fighting to tell you that you do not do this in my name. Fighting to undo the damage.

Watch your own backs, we’ve got ours.

OP posts:
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6
genever · 14/12/2017 10:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

vaginafetishist · 14/12/2017 11:01

Wow that OP is a peaktrans moment all by itself. Absolutely incomprehensible and shows up the absurdity of this movements claims.
Thanks OPGrin

MotorwayMingebag · 14/12/2017 11:02

So imagine you're a male rapist, on your way to male prison. You can simply say "actually, I'm a woman and I want to go to womens prison". Of course you do - why wouldn't you? Safer than male prison and access to many vulnerable women for you to abuse. Under this new law that's all that would be required - you don't ever have to have expressed any dysphoria, lived as a woman, seen a doctor about your gender. Nothing but a form. Does that sound like a good idea? A safe idea?

Reductio Ad Absurdam.

I do hope people reading this who are uncertain about the issues at hand don't take this sort of statement at face value.

You only have to look at Section 3 of the Scottish Government consultation (November) to see that whatever form the new law takes it will still include checks and balances ie reflection periods and penalties for making false/frivolous applications (in Belgium and Denmark this is a criminal offence). It WILL streamline the process for our fellow humans who wish to change their gender identity. It WILL NOT be a rapists charter giving criminal cis-men free run of women's prisons.

Here: www.gov.scot/Resource/0052/00527449.pdf

HemlockSpartacus · 14/12/2017 11:07

Motorway Here's the thing, those feminists who are campaigning about the propesed changes to the GRA are asking for reassurance that there will be checks and balances to ensure that rapists aren't put in with women. I know the TRA's like to pretend that it's something more than that, because most people would regard that as sensible. But it's that simple.

We want women to be safe.

So it is important that debates happen and that fears aren't dismissed as "hysteria" or "transphobia".

Datun · 14/12/2017 11:09

MotorwayMingebag

That’s wrong. Currently the rules apply everywhere but prison. However, that still doesn’t stop rapists being transferred to women’s prisons.

Martin Ponting. A double rapist. Transferred to a woman’s prison.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4856268/amp/Transgender-rapist-moved-women-jail-segregated.html

There are currently 11 sex offenders waiting to be transferred to women’s prisons.

Nearly half of all trans people in prison are sex offenders.

fairplayforwomen.com/prisons/transgender-prisoners

Datun · 14/12/2017 11:12

There are currently 13 transwomen in women’s prisons.

KatherinaMinola · 14/12/2017 11:23

I love that the OP decided to open with a bit talking about actual women giving birth and then expect a site of (mostly) mothers to have more sympathy with the bloke sat next to the bed because he can't pretend to be the one who went through it all.

Yes, Hemlock. And then to blame the nasty mothers who won't let the boy compete with the girls at sports - rather than placing blame with the boys who are waiting in their changing room to beat up the feminine boy...

That was really gonna land, wasn't it Grin

Lancelottie · 14/12/2017 11:27

But the very start of that document is 'Our proposed reforms include removing requirements for applicants to provide medical evidence'.

I do so wish that they'd be equally understanding about removing the need for medical evidence when my son is turned down for help for 'not providing enough evidence' that he still has the lifelong conditions he was born with.

Thehairthebod · 14/12/2017 11:34

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is.

What in earth makes you think that a woman who has just spent the last week with being fisted by someone to try and get their labour started, then spent 3 days in excruciating pain while fuck all happened, has then had their baby hauled out of them with a pair of giant BBQ tongs while the consultant had one foot up on the operating table, is still in a tonne of pain, is struggling to breastfeed and is being manhandled by a midwife to get their baby to latch, cannot shit without worrying they they are going to split open from back to front, is wearing an adult nappy which is stopping clots the size of a fist splattering onto the floor, is going to give a shiny fucking shite about someone in the next cubicle who is wallowing in self pity because they didn't get to experience any of that?

You haven't had kids have you?

TammySwansonTwo · 14/12/2017 11:36

Motorway please point out the part in section 3 where it discusses such checks and balances, since I've just read through it and can't see any such thing.

Scabbersley · 14/12/2017 11:36

denied her true value as a mother
Except the mother in the bed next to this self pitying person clearly has no value in your eyes.

genever · 14/12/2017 11:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KatherinaMinola · 14/12/2017 11:47

As far as I call tell there are three camps of feminist on this thread.

Camp 1: Nobody born with a penis can be a woman, transgender doesn’t exist, it’s the new self harm, it’s bearded men in dresses, it’s rapists lurking in female toilets, being biologically male and identifying as female is like believing in Father Christmas. Here, have a fucking biscuit.

Camp 2: I believe genuine transgender people exist and I wish them no harm. I want to have an intelligent debate about whether transgender women should have access to women only spaces or whether there should be a ‘third’ transgender space.

Camp 3: I had never given transgender people much though and had no problem with them until I came on Mumsnet and it opened my eyes. I shared the ‘letter to the woman who called me a terf’ post from carrotandcornsoup on Facebook and am genuinely surprised why nobody liked it. I am upset that lots of people deleted me as a friend and I got some private messages calling me a bigot.

perfectly, you have completely misunderstood the thread (and all other threads in this section). I would guess that most women posting here fall into a similar "camp" as me - mature, intelligent, worldly-wise feminists who have known many transsexuals, running the gamut from the fully-transitioned, living-as-a-woman (or man) kind, to the part-time transvestites / AGPs, to the type that, for want of a better word, we might categorize as "pisstakers".

We know that some people have gender dysphoria and prefer to identify as the other sex. We know that these people need safe spaces and facilities, and protection under the law.

We wish no harm either to the people with gender dysphoria, or to any of the other groups (including the pisstakers - we'd just like them to stop taking the piss).

We know the stats on male violence against women and girls, and our priority as feminists is to protect women and girls.

We are not (as you seem to believe) stupid or naive. You may or may not be aware of it, but there's more than a touch of misogyny in your characterization of MNers.

Nobody is posting their concerns about FtM transsexuals - because the problem boils down to one of men accessing women's spaces and erasing women's rights.

Now, what do you think about Lily Madigan - will common sense prevail?

ringle · 14/12/2017 11:48

thanks Datun and others for your reasoned argument - very helpful.

Are we/you saying that it is necessary to resile from the initial position of accepting trans women as women - even the majority who, as someone put it above, are just trying to get on with stuff under the radar?

It's all really sad.

What I can see is that no doctor or teacher or psychologist should be forced to say/do things they believe are harmful to a child merely because they fear the consequences for their job. And that taking medicine or undergoing surgery is probably not something a child should be able to consent to in this case.

Blanchefleur · 14/12/2017 11:58

MotorwayMingebag, can you point out exactly where these 'checks and balances' are listed? I can't find them. They mention that the Danish system has 6 months' reflection, but I can't see that they have actually proposed this. Also, a false application being a criminal offence is unlikely to worry someone who is already in prison!

This is all that I have found:

The Scottish Government considers that, subject to views expressed during this consultation, Scotland should adopt a self - declaration system for legal gender recognition. This would mean that applicants under a Scottish system would not have to demonstrate a diagnosis of gender dysphoria or that they had lived for a period in their acquired gender. (p. 16, para 3.26)

and

A requirement to submit a statutory declaration would demonstrate that applicants intend to permanently live in their acquired gender. Therefore, the Scottish Government considers that applicants under the proposed system of legal gender recognition should have to provide a statutory declaration stating that they:

are applying of their own free will;
understand the consequences of obtaining legal gender recognition; and
intend to live in their acquired gender until death. (p. 18 para 3.31)

I can't find anything specifically about prisons either.

TammySwansonTwo · 14/12/2017 12:11

And how would you prove a false declaration if dysphoria and having lived as the other gender isn't a requirement?

Seriously motorway - you tell me how the proposals prevent men who are not trans at all from using this law to abuse women and access women's spaces and watch my concerns disapppear. You don't think they will? Some men already go to far greater lengths to abuse women and children.

Datun · 14/12/2017 12:11

Are we/you saying that it is necessary to resile from the initial position of accepting trans women as women - even the majority who, as someone put it above, are just trying to get on with stuff under the radar?

Well that’s a good question. Most of the transsexuals I know of, both on here and in real life, do not go off alarming over misgendering. If you talk to them they are quite upfront about the fact that they are born male.

Some, like curry, who posts on here actually wants to be known as a transwoman. She feels as though her status is important to maintain. Given that she has very specific things to deal with that women don’t.

Miranda Yardley is quite happy being called he. And uses the male loos.

This has never been a problem until ‘transgenderism’. What does anyone care if a man wants to be known as she?

It’s this Johnny Come Lately cohort who insist they are biologically women, that the terms man and woman are determined by the way you think, not your biology, who are forcing women to pick a side.

If a man said he wants to be known as a woman, most women would say okay fine. If that same man insist you, as a lesbian, suck his dick because he’s a woman, then I’m sorry the rules change.

If a man says he wants to be known as a woman, fine, but if he says he is biologically a woman, and now a feminist, and will centre women with penises in feminism, then the rules change.

Women have been forced to go ‘all biology’ on their arses.

As we continually say, this is affecting transsexuals just as much as women.

Datun · 14/12/2017 12:13

Maria Miller was presented with written evidence from the prison service who said they have no doubt that men will pretend to be women in order to access women in female prisons. It was dismissed.

The only evidence she heard was from trans pressure groups. No women’s groups were allowed to participate.

When the report was written up, she dismissed any objection as coming from ‘women purporting to be feminists’.

HermioneWeasley · 14/12/2017 12:15

What does”denied her true value as a mother “ even mean? This fictional TW hasn’t carried a child and just given birth - what exactly do you want for them on a post natal ward that is different to any other birth partner?

FWIW we are a lesbian couple and my wife fav birth to both our kids. Not every HCP we came across knew exactly how to address us or recognised immediately what our relationship was (E.g.: had to explain that I was indeed a partner when trying to access the ward at partnership only visiting hours). No problem, I didn’t die or cry or feel sad or give a shit because it wasn’t relevant or about me.

ringle · 14/12/2017 12:18

"Maria Miller was presented with written evidence from the prison service who said they have no doubt that men will pretend to be women in order to access women in female prisons. It was dismissed."

Are we able to access this evidence?

Thehairthebod · 14/12/2017 12:23

Yes, a man sitting on a post natal ward surrounded by women who have just been through childbirth and the aftermath, making it all about him and his feelings.

How novel.

Datun · 14/12/2017 12:24

ringle

Absolutely. Has been copied into numerous articles since the report was published. The report is 98 pages long.

I’ll see if I can access it, as I know I’m looking for. Hold on.

ringle · 14/12/2017 12:30

That would be much appreciated Datun.

BatShite · 14/12/2017 12:34

Thehairthebod

You paint such an accurate picture of my labour there.

Like fuck would I be caring about some guy in the next cubicle wallowing in self pity because he is not in a shitload of pain.

LangCleg · 14/12/2017 12:49

Thehairthebod

My first child was born by ventouse. I needed stitches. I then had a haemhorrage and had to be rushed in for a D&C. 6 hours later I was trying to get to grips with latching on for breastfeeding.

If some TIM had been in the cubicle next door at the time and thought I'd give a shiny fecking shite for the trauma of being thought of as a father rather than a mother, that TIM could take a running jump.

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