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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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A letter to the TERFs

653 replies

Helen1111 · 13/12/2017 18:36

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To the women shrieking transphobic abuse on Mumsnet, in the name of women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, when the world you wish for has come to pass, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is. But they can’t or they won’t, because they think that denying her the right to be a mother somehow gives them more rights or keeps them safe.

Remember me when your trans neighbour, who is waiting to have children before he starts hormone therapy, gives birth, and feels vulnerable and exposed, because the one person who would truly have been able to understand how he feels (and the best midwife on the ward) has been drummed out by transphobic haters who call her "a man in a dress.". Remember me when the doctors refuse to let your trans cousin see a female doctor, because they won’t record her sex as ‘female.’ Remember me when they laugh at her genitalia, when strangers ask to see what’s under her dress, when they force her to show them, even though her body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because transphobic mothers won’t allow her to run in the girls' race, but she can't go into the boys' changing rooms for fear of being beaten, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, she will never be allowed to compete, or even if she does, people would never accept her victories.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis.

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. She’s put in the hours, she’s worked so hard, she knows she deserves it. And the position goes to Lola, who has spent the last year subjecting her to transphobic bullying her at every opportunity, and making her life so miserable that she’s considered suicide more than once. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have surgery, or to recover from the latest transphobic beating she received when walking home, (though either of them could get breast cancer because it doesn’t just affect people who were born female).

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for trans men and women being raped, murdered, beaten and driven to suicide are on the increase, and that, not only did you do anything to challenge or prevent this, but you spurred it on, in the name of women’s rights. Remember me too, when vulnerable trans women, who look for all the world like you and me, are locked up in male prisons and cannot escape, even though they are imprisoned with the very people who abused them and drove them to the edge.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, and he tells you that this was the first time he ever felt like there was a truly place for him in the world. But then his teacher told him it is wrong and immoral to be like this. And you realise that all this time, when you preached transphobia, you were teaching others that your son was wrong, was a misogynist in women’s clothing. And you realise that your son, your wonderful, unique, son, will only be happy when you accept him as your daughter. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that your son is depressed, that he is being bullied by people who were once his friends, but she doesn't want to have to involve their parents in this, because it’s really just a lifestyle choice and people should be free to tell him what they think of him, after all it’s really just protecting the rights of the girls in the class. But you are afraid – of yourself, your son, your friends, and you don’t know what to do.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transphobic friends, the ones who called trans women “six foot men with stubble in a dress” and yet still claimed these ‘men’ were “benefitting from the patriarchy.” Look around and maybe you will finally see that this has cost trans women everything, it has made the world a harder, crueller place for them, and yet they still did this. Despite the odds, the pain, the abuse, despite never being considered to be one thing or another, they still chose to live as women.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for all our rights. Fighting to tell you that you do not do this in my name. Fighting to undo the damage.

Watch your own backs, we’ve got ours.

OP posts:
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6
LangCleg · 14/12/2017 09:11

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

To be fair, I do think some aspects of the current process to obtain a GRC could do with revising. I don't think there should be significant costs for low-income people, for example.

Also, my own friend had a bad experience appearing before the panel to obtain a GRC. She (my friend, I use the pronoun) wore women's tailored trousers, a plain blouse, a bit of mascara and some lipstick. The kind of thing you might wear to a job interview. She was questioned about how non-feminine her clothes were, as if this was some kind of red flag that she wasn't "for real" about the application. Deeply humiliating for her, as you can imagine, and also exactly what feminists are complaining about - woman isn't a hyper-feminine costume.

So I'm not objecting to a review of the GRA in principle at all. I can see it's not perfect.

I'm objecting to:

  • self-ID with no medical diagnosis required
  • over-writing of sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic
  • removal of single sex service exceptions
BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 09:15

Agree with Lang. Remove the costs (iirc ego doesn't have her GRC yet - despite having had her final surgery a while back - as it's too expensive to justify) and make the process a little less sexist.
Apart from that, it's fine as it is.

Catsrus · 14/12/2017 09:45

@PerfectlyWretched for me, it's not that there are three types of feminist in here. It's that I've gone through exactly those three stages, through reading, discussion, research and have ended up as a stage 1.

I'm a retired academic scientist, heterosexual, mother of adult daughters. Would have always counted myself as a trans ally (indeed, moderated an online group where I banned someone for "misgendering" trans members) Life long feminist. I'm not prone to over reacting. The proposed changes to the Gender Recognition act are the single biggest threat to the safety of woman and children in this country that I can remember. At one stroke Self ID removes the possibility of safe spaces. It's bonkers.

Recognising how dangerous this was led me to dig deeper into the whole trans issue. I realised I had been a typical "let's be kind to the poor people trapped in the wrong body" feminist and had allowed my critical thinking skills around this issue to atrophy. Once they kicked back in I had a real "oh fuck" moment.

Emperor's new clothes. Once you see he's naked there's no going back.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/12/2017 09:50

I fundamentally disagree with the camps that perfectly has simplistically and sarcastically outlined. It isn't a matter of moving between them for me. It is a matter of simply not thinking that they do justice to the very nuanced positions that I mostly see on here, especially from posters who have been here a long time, or since the initial Spartacus threads some 18 months ago. I'm not going to attempt to summarise any of the nuanced views I see on here, or to categorise them, but I did want to warn people that we should be defining our own positions and not letting TRAs or others set them for us.

QuentinSummers · 14/12/2017 09:52

Camp 1: Nobody born with a penis can be a woman, transgender doesn’t exist, it’s the new self harm, it’s bearded men in dresses, it’s rapists lurking in female toilets, being biologically male and identifying as female is like believing in Father Christmas. Here, have a fucking biscuit.

This is bullshit. Saying that no-one born with a penis can be a woman does not mean you believe the hate filled bilge you wrote afterwards. It's really offensive and shows you are totally missing the point some feminists are making.

Many of us believe that woman is purely a descriptor based on the reproductive class a person belongs to. Adult human female = woman. Adult human male = man (like adult chicken female = hen, adult chicken male = rooster).

A person with a penis therefore is male and cannot be a woman.

Transgenderism as a condition exists and there are definitely men with transgenderism who are colloquially described as trans women.

That doesn't mean they are actually women. But stating that doesn't mean I think they don't exist.

As for the rapists in toilets, we KNOW sex offenders go to all kinds of lengths to gain access to victims (for example, getting jobs as sports coaches, school caretakers, football scouts, priests). We KNOW there are many men who get a kick out of secretly filming women undressing or on the toilet (just Google voyeurism). We KNOW when unisex facilities exist there are problems with planted cameras and filming over or under doors. We KNOW the law is inadequate in protecting women from sexual assault (look at the woeful prosecution/conviction rates).

Yet when we suggest it might not be wise to let men into women's space purely on the basis that they say they "feel like a woman" we get called transphobic haters.

We aren't talking about trans women. We are talking about giving sex offending MEN an avenue they can exploit. It is delusional to think a sex offender wouldn't lie and say they "felt female" to enable their offending.

OpalIridescence · 14/12/2017 09:54

perfectly post after thoughtful post on this thread.

Women lining up to discuss, dismantle and reassemble this in a meaningful way.

Please enter into what you are asking for, a respectful debate.

Maybe it's just easier to concentrate on the bloody biscuits because you have entered what is a complicated, high stakes minefield and basically told everyone to calm down?

So what are your suggestions, the solution that moves forward with no hurt feelings?

Walk the walk please..

carrotandcornsoup · 14/12/2017 10:01

Perfectly you really are out of your depth here. It’s clear with each post that you do not fully understand the issue and do not really know what you are talking about.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/12/2017 10:01

I'm also unhappy with the Opening post as there is no intention to discuss

Its just been plopped down

Its bloody rude...and probably not in the 'spirit of the site'

Dozer · 14/12/2017 10:04

Your post doesn’t make sense opal.

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 10:06

Very unlike helen to whinge-plop on mn. Oh no, wait...

jellyfrizz · 14/12/2017 10:08

If you have any suggestions, whatsoever, how you can have a framework that accommodates both sets of rights, I’d be delighted to discuss it.

Re. rights. I don't believe it is a right to re-define a protected characteristic.

The answer has to be more acceptance and protection for trans and gender non-conforming people.

But this can't happen while people insist they are actually the opposite sex because then trans rights get lost; there are no trans people, everyone is whatever they believe themselves to be.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/12/2017 10:09

beyond

Ive grown accustomed to the jolly rude thread ploppers

And those sanctimonious posters who ignore virtually every post on the thread just to prove a non existent point

Its the whole start and thread and have no intention of doing anything about it that im am moving my vitriol to Grin

I thought 1111 had deregged anyway ...I'm assuming they started the thread and then pissed off

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/12/2017 10:09

Following on from Quentin ... "it’s the new self harm" ... maybe and maybe not. But many of us are very worried that children and young people are being swept up into something that few understand and are questioning. We are concerned that they are being given drugs and later surgery that will have unknown consequences or life-long consequences. What we are objecting to is the lack of questioning by the medical profession (broadly conceived) and indeed policy directives that make it illegal to question (where questioning a patient's gender identity statement is akin to conversion therapy) at a time when unprecedented numbers of young people are presenting as 'trans'. Many of these young people have comorbidities or have suffered childhood sexual abuse. Instead of rigorous counselling to separate out those for whom transition is the only way (life-altering surgery don't forget) from those who might not be dysphoric at all or who might benefit from other therapies many children and young people are pushed along the trans treadmill. There are parents posting here who are terrified that their children might identify as trans because schoolmates are telling them they must be if they flaunt gender stereotypes. There are others whose children have identified as trans who are desperately trying to seek help that does not involve blockers and hormones and they have been told that these are now the only options (at least in public systems). That is far, far different from 'the new self-harm'. Don't make straw people out of complex and nuanced arguments.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/12/2017 10:09

I think opals post makes sense dozer

What am I missing

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/12/2017 10:12

There are parents posting here who are terrified that their children might identify as trans because schoolmates are telling them they must be if they flaunt gender stereotypes

Yep ds1 was called a girl and gay for years

All it would take is someone on social media or a well meaning teacher to have persuaded him that maybe he really was a girl

He is not...he is a very handsome young man with no leaning towards breaking any gender stereotypes with his appearance

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 10:15

Rufus, I'd put paper money on it that Helen is still reading and whinging about us on the Mermaids "support" forum. As I'd put paper money on it that "Helen" is indeed that Helen...

OpalIridescence · 14/12/2017 10:16

Which part doesn't make sense dozer?

Datun · 14/12/2017 10:18

I’d put money on it that Helen has re-registered and is reading this.

They won’t comment until they have read enough though.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/12/2017 10:19

Ooh interesting beyond and datun

And probably very true

Datun · 14/12/2017 10:30

You don’t spend hours approprating, sorry, writing a post like that without being desperate to know the response.

Trinity66 · 14/12/2017 10:38

If anything this rebuttal reinforces the points made in the original, good job OP Grin

ContemporaryPankhurst · 14/12/2017 10:45

This is hogswash. If one was playing TRA bingo it would tick every box, including the threat at the end. I feel sorry for you Helen111 on so many levels but I will still fight for your rights no matter how much abuse you give out.

ArcheryAnnie · 14/12/2017 10:51

I note that TeslasDeathRay hasn't returned to provide any evidence of their rather nasty assertions about what women on here think.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/12/2017 10:56

datun

Fair point

It woukd have taken hours just to get the pronouns straight

HemlockSpartacus · 14/12/2017 10:57

I love that the OP decided to open with a bit talking about actual women giving birth and then expect a site of (mostly) mothers to have more sympathy with the bloke sat next to the bed because he can't pretend to be the one who went through it all.