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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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A letter to the TERFs

653 replies

Helen1111 · 13/12/2017 18:36

__

To the women shrieking transphobic abuse on Mumsnet, in the name of women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, when the world you wish for has come to pass, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is. But they can’t or they won’t, because they think that denying her the right to be a mother somehow gives them more rights or keeps them safe.

Remember me when your trans neighbour, who is waiting to have children before he starts hormone therapy, gives birth, and feels vulnerable and exposed, because the one person who would truly have been able to understand how he feels (and the best midwife on the ward) has been drummed out by transphobic haters who call her "a man in a dress.". Remember me when the doctors refuse to let your trans cousin see a female doctor, because they won’t record her sex as ‘female.’ Remember me when they laugh at her genitalia, when strangers ask to see what’s under her dress, when they force her to show them, even though her body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because transphobic mothers won’t allow her to run in the girls' race, but she can't go into the boys' changing rooms for fear of being beaten, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, she will never be allowed to compete, or even if she does, people would never accept her victories.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis.

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. She’s put in the hours, she’s worked so hard, she knows she deserves it. And the position goes to Lola, who has spent the last year subjecting her to transphobic bullying her at every opportunity, and making her life so miserable that she’s considered suicide more than once. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have surgery, or to recover from the latest transphobic beating she received when walking home, (though either of them could get breast cancer because it doesn’t just affect people who were born female).

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for trans men and women being raped, murdered, beaten and driven to suicide are on the increase, and that, not only did you do anything to challenge or prevent this, but you spurred it on, in the name of women’s rights. Remember me too, when vulnerable trans women, who look for all the world like you and me, are locked up in male prisons and cannot escape, even though they are imprisoned with the very people who abused them and drove them to the edge.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, and he tells you that this was the first time he ever felt like there was a truly place for him in the world. But then his teacher told him it is wrong and immoral to be like this. And you realise that all this time, when you preached transphobia, you were teaching others that your son was wrong, was a misogynist in women’s clothing. And you realise that your son, your wonderful, unique, son, will only be happy when you accept him as your daughter. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that your son is depressed, that he is being bullied by people who were once his friends, but she doesn't want to have to involve their parents in this, because it’s really just a lifestyle choice and people should be free to tell him what they think of him, after all it’s really just protecting the rights of the girls in the class. But you are afraid – of yourself, your son, your friends, and you don’t know what to do.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transphobic friends, the ones who called trans women “six foot men with stubble in a dress” and yet still claimed these ‘men’ were “benefitting from the patriarchy.” Look around and maybe you will finally see that this has cost trans women everything, it has made the world a harder, crueller place for them, and yet they still did this. Despite the odds, the pain, the abuse, despite never being considered to be one thing or another, they still chose to live as women.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for all our rights. Fighting to tell you that you do not do this in my name. Fighting to undo the damage.

Watch your own backs, we’ve got ours.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Italiangreyhound · 14/12/2017 02:31

BarrackerBarmer I hope your post at "Wed 13-Dec-17 20:23:52" will be true. I especially hope young people will move on and not filled with this angst about their internal gender identity. Thanks

Italiangreyhound · 14/12/2017 02:32

Sorry imagined " internal gender identity", which is not the same as transsexuals who are genuinely dysphoric I mean.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 14/12/2017 07:37

Cote, OP took a bunch of madey uppy scenarios about people-with-penises and helpfully called them 'mother'/'daughter'/'niece'.
We're supposed to be very sad that the penis people are not being treated as if they were vagina-people.

So, for example, the woman in bed having just pushed a baby out of her vagina is supposed to occupy her time with sadfeelz for the penisperson standing very close to her bed, who, having impregnated his wife (in the neighbouring bed) with his ladyspermz, and presumably watched her push her baby out of her vagina, is being denied the right to be called mother by the two wretched vagina having birthing torn perineum people.
*Selfish heartless birthing people that they are, not thinking of him in his hour of need.^

It would be much easier to get the gist if we had pictures...

@BarackerBarmer, it would indeed, and I'm here to help. This link has an illustration, not a photo but you will get the gist, and the text is very illuminating. Note particularly how the TIM took the baby away from her mother a few minutes after birth to try to get his own breastfeeding established and how the baby's biological mother was unable to get breastfeeding properly established in the first few weeks. Based on my own experience of working very hard to make breastfeeding work after a CS, this intervention was almost certainly not helpful. All focus should have been on mother and baby, not on a biological male trying to produce a trickle of milk to validate his own feelings. Where's the recognition of the importance of colostrum to the newborn?

Notmesomeoneelse1978 · 14/12/2017 07:42

pricklyball just read the link you shared and as someone not on Twitter and it's ilk I'm really shocked and shaken. So it's ok to talk about murder of so called "turfs" (actually had to google that) but surely if the same vile threats were being made about a particular race or sexuality these people would be arrested ? Or am I naive ? I can't believe people are posting about slitting throats and beating people
My mind is blown

laudanum · 14/12/2017 07:55

WELL BLOODY SAID.

So fed up of the disgusting transphobia on here. Star

sleighbellend · 14/12/2017 07:57

Does that ‘well bloody said’ and gold star mean you approve of the threat at the end?

Thehairthebod · 14/12/2017 08:06

Wow, laudanum, you think that the OP was profound, well thought out and jolly well showed them nasty feminists what for?

I bet you thought Lily Madigan 'smashed it' when she was on the telly as well did you?

Nice to see your approval of the thinly veiled threats at the end.

Datun · 14/12/2017 08:11

ringle

Terms for men who identify as women are transwomen, TIM (trans identified male) or MtT (male to trans).

What transactivists want to be called has changed, keeps changing. Currently it’s trans woman (with a gap) With the emphasis on the woman part more. Although now, you will often find (as in the OP) that they just say woman.

Same for women identifying as men, presumably. But you never hear from them (because like women everywhere they don’t have a voice or much power)

Cis. Transactivists will tell you this just means not trans. As in you identify as the sex you are. But there is more to it than that. It means you relate to your gender identity. Most people do not relate to that, since gender identity is an imposed set of stereotypes. So me, as a feminist, does not relate to the gender imposed on women.

It’s also objectionable to be called something purely on the basis of its relation to something else. I’m not ‘not trans’. I am a woman. In my own right. It needs no qualifier.

You also get cis-sexist - which indicates a sexist privilege on the basis of you not being trans. It can include anything that a woman experiences that a transwoman doesn’t. (Even talking about things like miscarriage and abortion can be termed exclusionary, because it is hurtful to transwomen).

TERF - originally stood for trans exclusionary radical feminist, as feminists were the first people to object. But became synonymous with ‘witch’ and threats. It basically means if you disagree with any part of the ideology you are a terf and need to be blocked, shut up, ignored, threatened.

‘Gender dysphoria’. The condition where you reject your born sex. Think in terms of anorexia. Many transwomen have it. And it was the condition on which transsexuality is based.

Transsexual - a person with gender dysphoria who often has treatment and surgery to alleviate the symptoms.

Transgender - umbrella term that includes transsexual, transvestites, non-binary people who don’t feel either male or female, gender fluid people who switch around.

The transvestite cohort and the transsexual cohort tend to disagree. Because they transition for different reasons. The transvestite cohort call call the transsexual cohort ‘truscum’.

Most of the problems are with the transvestite cohort, as transvestitism often develops into autogynephilia (AGP). Which is being sexually aroused at the thought of yourself as a woman.

Many transexuals support women and are not hellbent on appropriating women’s rights/spaces. They tend to be attracted to men, and just want to get on with it under the radar.

AGP individuals are attracted to women, call themselves lesbians and maintain that lesbians should sleep with him, despite the presence of a penis. (See Cotton ceiling).

They are the ones who are most militant about getting into women’s spaces. It’s sexually motivated because it’s a turn on. They’re not predators in the traditional sense, but being viewed as women and forcing you to use female pronouns is arousing. The fetish can take a bizarre turn when it starts to concentrate on women’s actual biology, like pregnancy and breastfeeding. (you can buy ‘menstruation kits’ online, prosthetic pregnancy bumps, pants that have a plastic vagina in them).

They are the ones who push words like cis, terf, and come up with all the bizarre ‘chest feeding’ and ‘pregnant person’ things. There is a deep need to claim everything woman, which requires the elimination of any biological distinction between male and female.

Hence the man in the post up thread who tried to breastfeed his baby.

See this recent support thread for women who are married to, or divorced from, men with AGP.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

The reason women get so irate is because these AGP individuals do not, to most women, represent transsexuality. Hence the disconnect between people who know perfectly lovely transsexuals, who are harmless and genuine, and those who have encounted misogynistic, bullying men who have hijacked their narrative, to further a fetish.

MotorwayMingebag · 14/12/2017 08:28

The OP is utter drivel. The original 'Remember Me - blahblah' post was bad enough - full of over-simplification, gross exaggeration and scaremongering but at least it read well.

Thank God the vast majority of the population fall in the mid-ground of these two extremes, a mid- ground where common sense and fact prevail.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/12/2017 08:31

Then there are those who are neither transvestites (and some TVs are quite happy simply dressing as a woman from time-to-time and have no desire to live as one) nor transexuals but are keyboard / SJ warriors / TRAs who describe themselves as 'non-binary' or 'queer' or 'trans' and who don't seem to want to present as stereotypically female / feminine. Often these are younger and are activists and part of Antifa or similar movements.

For example, see

www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/10/23/meet-the-trigger-warning-queer-trans-gun-club-an-armed-response-to-the-us-far-right.html

and the graphic attached to this post.

Yes the gun crazy lot are from the US but violent and misogynist TRAs are everywhere - they are of the ilk who did the attack at speaker's corner and I suspect also the anarchist book fair.

A letter to the TERFs
perfectlywretched · 14/12/2017 08:33

As far as I call tell there are three camps of feminist on this thread.

Camp 1: Nobody born with a penis can be a woman, transgender doesn’t exist, it’s the new self harm, it’s bearded men in dresses, it’s rapists lurking in female toilets, being biologically male and identifying as female is like believing in Father Christmas. Here, have a fucking biscuit.

Camp 2: I believe genuine transgender people exist and I wish them no harm. I want to have an intelligent debate about whether transgender women should have access to women only spaces or whether there should be a ‘third’ transgender space.

Camp 3: I had never given transgender people much though and had no problem with them until I came on Mumsnet and it opened my eyes. I shared the ‘letter to the woman who called me a terf’ post from carrotandcornsoup on Facebook and am genuinely surprised why nobody liked it. I am upset that lots of people deleted me as a friend and I got some private messages calling me a bigot.

I would say to camp 1, let’s agree to disagree and not engage anymore. We are never going to find a middle ground.

Camp 2, let’s gather all the biscuits flung at us by camp 1, make a pot of tea, sit down with our transgender friends and work out how we are going to move forward without anyone feeling threatened, fearful or oppressed.

Camp 3, come and join us in camp 2! We are an inclusive bunch here. Please don’t be surprised when people outside of Mumsnet don’t respond to what appears to be hate speech, even if you don’t see it that way. Carrotandcorns letter was very extreme, even the likes of the Daily Mail wouldn’t go near it, and you can’t blame your Facebook friends for being shocked.

hackmum · 14/12/2017 08:37

Apologies for not reading the entire thread. I'm sure someone has already responded to this paragraph, but I'm going to anyway:

"Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis."

Here's the thing, OP. Women don't mind if a transman comes into the toilet with them. Because a transman is really a biological woman, and biological women don't tend to assault other women. Transwomen, on the other hand, are biological men and they assault women at the same rates as other men.

You know that, though, don't you, OP? You know that your argument is one long lie. It's a wilful stupidity, a determined refusal to see the world as it is, and a belief that if you want something to be true, then that's enough to make it so.

Sorry, OP. However hard you insist that a man can be a woman, he'll always be a man.

Lancelottie · 14/12/2017 08:40

Thing is, PerfectlyWretched, I'd say I used to be Camp 2, but am starting to see real-life effects on people I know and like that are moving me towards Camp 1.

When I try to defend the idea that 'transgender people are their new sex', I just can't.

When my daughter turns out to believe that people can now actually change sex, like she was told at school, I can't agree with her.

When more and more kids I've known from birth are breastbinding and taking hormones, yes, I call that self-harm. It causes actual measurable harm. What else would you call it?

Datun · 14/12/2017 08:40

Camp 2, let’s gather all the biscuits flung at us by camp 1, make a pot of tea, sit down with our transgender friends and work out how we are going to move forward without anyone feeling threatened, fearful or oppressed.

perfectlywretched. You’re behind the times. This was certainly the position of women, originally.

But there is no middle ground. Because of what transactivists want, there is a basic conflict, undeniably.

When Mumsnet first started talking about this, I can’t tell you the number of posts that started with the words ‘ I don’t wish any harm to trans people, I want them to be happy, I will march with them, side-by-side for their rights’. Followed by a discussion on how to simultaneously retain sex based protections.

It soon became clear that you can’t do both.

I don’t think there’s a woman alive who wouldn’t agree to a compromise that retained sex as a protected characteristic.

If you have any suggestions, whatsoever, how you can have a framework that accommodates both sets of rights, I’d be delighted to discuss it. (And I imagine the government would too. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that they keep putting off the consultation).

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 08:41

Nobody, ever, in the history of mumsnet (as far as I have seen - and I've read a lot of these threads!), has said that transgenderism doesn't exist.

WhatATimeToBeAlive · 14/12/2017 08:44

I gave up halfway through as I really couldn't understand what the hell was going on.

Datun · 14/12/2017 08:45

Nobody, ever, in the history of mumsnet (as far as I have seen - and I've read a lot of these threads!), has said that transgenderism doesn't exist.

I imagine the confusion arises because feminists say transgenderism shouldn’t exist.

If we dismantled gender, there would be nothing to transition to and from.

I know lots of people think they would, because they believe there is an internal essence that tells you whether you are a man or a woman.

However, I have yet to see any single person describe that, without resorting to gender stereotypes.

If you take the discussion away from the abstract, and look at what is actually happening. It’s absolutely all about stereotypes.

CisCucumber · 14/12/2017 08:47

No matter what your opinion can't change the fact that trans women and women have nothing in common other than likes and dislikes
My interest is in services and equality for women and trying to ensure those are provided. Pre or post op trans women have completely different needs
I would be much more supportive if that were acknowledged instead of trying to lump us together

BeyondAssignation · 14/12/2017 08:47

Yy Datun, but even then that doesn't include transsexuals who are dysphoric. Does perfectly think that femnists think these people are pretending?! Confused

Anatidae · 14/12/2017 08:49

datun has nailed it.

When I first started reading these posts on MN my stance was that tolerance and inclusivity is good, no one should be harmed, sure we can sort all this out etc.

But the sheer venom of TRAs has changed my mind. I now believe there is a fundamental discord that cannot be resolved in a manner that suits both parties. Because there is a small but highly aggressive subset of these men who want to be seen as women while simultaneously hating women and actuvely damaging the legal and societal protections women have fought for

And that’s what I can’t grasp. How can you want to be something while hating it so much? It’s like saying you’re black and then joining the KKK. It’s such a troubling position.

Allowing men to say they are women will lead to the destruction of legal and societal instruments that protect women. That’s what it boils down to.

The use of the ‘phobia’ epithet is interesting too. It’s used to silence debate. If one questions religious doctrine one is called islamiohobic for example, but that word should be used for people who discriminate against individuals holding the religion NOT against those questioning the ideology itself. The person has the protection, not the religion. I would be wrong to discriminate against someone who holds a religion. I would not be wrong to criticise the actual ideology.
The same principle is here. If I sack someone who announces they have a wish to transition I have committed a morally wrong and legally wrong act. If I question the ideology that will destroy sex discrimination legislation I am not transphobic.

Language is important, and -phobic is usedbto silence legitimate debate.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 14/12/2017 08:54

sit down with our transgender friends and work out how we are going to move forward without anyone feeling threatened, fearful or oppressed

The problem is that we already have a very fair compromise.

People can change sex with surgery on the NHS, and all documents change to identified gender etc. Transgender is already a protected characteristic, no matter what stage of the process you are in. Transgender children can get puberty blockers on the NHS.

The wait for a GRC allows people space to think and change there minds if they wish, it also means that some degree of commitment is required which helps weed out predatory males. There are some exceptions to being accepted as a woman eg dormitories and intimate care which again is treading a very difficult middle line between women's rights and trans rights.

Trans rights activists are not happy with these compromises, they want the only compromise to be on the side of women, also.a protected group.

TammySwansonTwo · 14/12/2017 08:56

perfectly I have no hate, anger or even dislike of those who are gender dysphoric. None whatsoever. I have some wonderful trans friends and the whole GRA issue is just as worrying and problematic and dangerous for them as it is for women.

Women's only spaces exist because a minority of men are a threat to women.
Trans women want access to these spaces because a minority of men are also a threat to them.
How does opening up women's only spaces to anyone who is motivated to access them, simply by filling in a form, protect genuine trans women? It doesn't, it puts them at more risk. Genuine trans women see this, on the whole. Which makes you wonder, what is the motivation of those pushing for this?

Yes, we should be able to weed out the "piss takers". That's what the current law allows. Self-identification will remove that ability.

So imagine you're a male rapist, on your way to male prison. You can simply say "actually, I'm a woman and I want to go to womens prison". Of course you do - why wouldn't you? Safer than male prison and access to many vulnerable women for you to abuse. Under this new law that's all that would be required - you don't ever have to have expressed any dysphoria, lived as a woman, seen a doctor about your gender. Nothing but a form. Does that sound like a good idea? A safe idea?

Besides which, you're behind the times - the vocal TRA community now say you don't need to experience any dysphoria in order to be trans. By making such a statement, you are now a TERF, despite being a vocal ally. Have a look at the term "truscum". Have a look on twitter for tweets associated with that term and TERF.

Now tell me - who hates who here?

TammySwansonTwo · 14/12/2017 08:58

ringle I would recommend checking out this blog, which posts about content seen in the trans group on Reddit (transgenderreality.com) or just go and browse those groups on Reddit yourself. Seeing these things opened my eyes significantly.

LangCleg · 14/12/2017 09:02

I think there is no compromise to be found with the current iteration of transactivism (gender identity theory).

I think it would be easy to find ways forward in a discussion between women and transsexuals (dysphoric trans people).

I think the problem for feminists is that the wider public think the proposed GRA changes are about the latter when actually they are about the former.

Thehairthebod · 14/12/2017 09:11

Transwomen are not women. They are men who, for a myriad of reasons, choose to present as how society has deemed women should in the way that that they dress and act. They also choose a traditionally female name and ask to be referred to with a female pronoun.

There is nothing wrong at all with any of the above. But the reason that this is even an 'unusual' thing is because of the gender constraints that are foisted upon us from birth. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wearing a dress, makeup, having long fabulous hair. In fact, it's great!

It does not make that man a woman. It makes that man a man who is into that stuff. I just can't see how it is transphobic to say that?

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