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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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A letter to the TERFs

653 replies

Helen1111 · 13/12/2017 18:36

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To the women shrieking transphobic abuse on Mumsnet, in the name of women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, when the world you wish for has come to pass, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is. But they can’t or they won’t, because they think that denying her the right to be a mother somehow gives them more rights or keeps them safe.

Remember me when your trans neighbour, who is waiting to have children before he starts hormone therapy, gives birth, and feels vulnerable and exposed, because the one person who would truly have been able to understand how he feels (and the best midwife on the ward) has been drummed out by transphobic haters who call her "a man in a dress.". Remember me when the doctors refuse to let your trans cousin see a female doctor, because they won’t record her sex as ‘female.’ Remember me when they laugh at her genitalia, when strangers ask to see what’s under her dress, when they force her to show them, even though her body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because transphobic mothers won’t allow her to run in the girls' race, but she can't go into the boys' changing rooms for fear of being beaten, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, she will never be allowed to compete, or even if she does, people would never accept her victories.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis.

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. She’s put in the hours, she’s worked so hard, she knows she deserves it. And the position goes to Lola, who has spent the last year subjecting her to transphobic bullying her at every opportunity, and making her life so miserable that she’s considered suicide more than once. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have surgery, or to recover from the latest transphobic beating she received when walking home, (though either of them could get breast cancer because it doesn’t just affect people who were born female).

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for trans men and women being raped, murdered, beaten and driven to suicide are on the increase, and that, not only did you do anything to challenge or prevent this, but you spurred it on, in the name of women’s rights. Remember me too, when vulnerable trans women, who look for all the world like you and me, are locked up in male prisons and cannot escape, even though they are imprisoned with the very people who abused them and drove them to the edge.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, and he tells you that this was the first time he ever felt like there was a truly place for him in the world. But then his teacher told him it is wrong and immoral to be like this. And you realise that all this time, when you preached transphobia, you were teaching others that your son was wrong, was a misogynist in women’s clothing. And you realise that your son, your wonderful, unique, son, will only be happy when you accept him as your daughter. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that your son is depressed, that he is being bullied by people who were once his friends, but she doesn't want to have to involve their parents in this, because it’s really just a lifestyle choice and people should be free to tell him what they think of him, after all it’s really just protecting the rights of the girls in the class. But you are afraid – of yourself, your son, your friends, and you don’t know what to do.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transphobic friends, the ones who called trans women “six foot men with stubble in a dress” and yet still claimed these ‘men’ were “benefitting from the patriarchy.” Look around and maybe you will finally see that this has cost trans women everything, it has made the world a harder, crueller place for them, and yet they still did this. Despite the odds, the pain, the abuse, despite never being considered to be one thing or another, they still chose to live as women.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for all our rights. Fighting to tell you that you do not do this in my name. Fighting to undo the damage.

Watch your own backs, we’ve got ours.

OP posts:
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6
ringle · 13/12/2017 23:14

Hi bewildered,

"Google is your friend, "

Most things I need to know I learn better from the communities on mumsnet.

hipsterfun · 13/12/2017 23:16

Don’t be a lazy bones, just crack on and Google any acronyms.

ringle · 13/12/2017 23:18

Ok good night.

What is the best site for learning about the trans experience. Stonewall?

NerudaIsHeaven · 13/12/2017 23:20

I do not "hate" transwomen.

But I do not think they are women. I think they are men.

That's all there is to it TBH. If anyone can explain what "rights" I am erasing with that opinion, go right ahead.

ringle · 13/12/2017 23:21

Well, if lazy bones is now the level of critical remark on the thread then things are improving.

To turn it around, why would these acronyms be useful? They are just criticisms.

NerudaIsHeaven · 13/12/2017 23:22

God no NOT stonewall

The answer is I don't know, because none of them seem to actually answer the question I want answered, which is: what are the identifiable characteristics of the female (or indeed male) "gender"? If one can identify into it, there must be characteristics which are commonly identifiable. What are they?

ringle · 13/12/2017 23:23

That's a very legalistic question though isn't it?

I'm more after the "why would you want to do this? What is your story?" type of thing.

ArcheryAnnie · 13/12/2017 23:24

ringle I get why you posted why you did, but I also notice you didn't post when TeslasDeathRay posted that nasty "TERF bingo card" with the central square reading "envious of the superior legs of many trans women". It's a really tired trans activist misogynist trope, repeated again and again, that transwomen make better women than actual women. Why did you let that stand when the "facsimile" remark, which is essentially the other side of that coin, upset you so much?

And I don't think I even need you to answer that one. Trans activists can post all the death threats they like, and if you mention it, all you get is "don't hold all trans people responsible for a few outliers!" (Never mind that they aren't outliers, but still.) One gender-critical feminist can post the word "facsimile" (not nice, but not also either a death threat, or telling the OP to choke on her girldick) and OMG we are all so mean and nasty, that's why people don't listen to us.

Badgerthebodger · 13/12/2017 23:26

Crikey Ringle I was just coming back to point you this blog post which I think is very informative
notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

For a trans perspective, I don’t know. It’s hard to find clearly laid out thoughts and arguments because so much of it is attacks and cries of bigot and hatred without engaging in debate. Acronyms - I don’t know if they’re useful or not. They’re certainly not an insult, just a shortened version of often used phrases to save people time - something you find on every forum.

NerudaIsHeaven · 13/12/2017 23:26

ringle I think people do it because they are so constricted by gender norms and expectations they think playing with dollies growing up means they must be female.

That's a very simplistic answer but you get the point.

ArcheryAnnie · 13/12/2017 23:26

ringle if you want to bring yourself up to speed, this isn't a bad place to start. It also has the virtue of being brief.

sages.org.uk/publications/pdfs/Quick-facts-Sex-gender-and-equal-rights-SAGES-2017.pdf

WTAFisthisshit · 13/12/2017 23:29

ringle try hope @streetvoiceuk or Miranda Yardley on twitter or curry on here.

I don't think there is just the one trans experience.

ringle · 13/12/2017 23:30

Nothing in this thread has upset me, just concerned me.

I had not previously come across the "legs" remark.

Changebagsandgladrags · 13/12/2017 23:30

On Googling acronyms. I looked up TIM a while back...It wasn't all that helpful
.

ArcheryAnnie · 13/12/2017 23:34

It's on page 6, or thereabouts, ringle. (Almost everything written on that "bingo card" that Tesla posted is nasty, misogynistic bullshit, or ridiculous strawmen.)

WillowWept · 13/12/2017 23:36

Ringle if it’s too hard to think what the characteristics of gender are (and I know when you start on this journey it can be) how about the question what is a woman?

I remember someone on here asking me that question 18mths ago and slowly things started to fall in to place.

WillowWept · 13/12/2017 23:37

change TIM = trans identifying male. Or a born man who identifies as trans.

It’s clearer I think than transwomen (which some people think is a born woman who identifies as trans)

failingatlife · 13/12/2017 23:45

Nannyogg
Agree with you 100%

Changebagsandgladrags · 13/12/2017 23:46

Ah so it's a person male born (as observed at birth with XY chromosomes) who now would like to be known as a woman?

Because in my head I had it flipped: Trans identifying as male. As in would like to be male. But also in my head I knew that was nonsense.

So sometimes Google can just confuse...

blackdoggotmytongue · 13/12/2017 23:50

the only acronym that's an insult is TERF, isn't it? And that's thrown by transactivists? The rest are just pretty commonly used acronyms to save typing out things like 'transactivist' or 'mens rights activist' etc. They aren't insults or slurs?

The discussion about reclaiming TERF that happened was a reaction to being insulted. It's not like everyone is standing around hurling insults in acronym form. That would be bloody weird. Acronyms are a pretty usual form of shorthand, surely? Confused

ringle · 13/12/2017 23:52

Thank you.

If you want to learn about climate change -learn enough to have an informed opinion - you don't start by acquiring a thorough knowledge of terms like "climate change denier". All that does is teach you who to hate. You haven't acquired any knowledge. I think the names and words like TERF aren't really fuel for the brain, if that makes sense. They are just weapons being hurled.

I guess my starting point would be to ask about the history and the underlying medical technology that has made changing gender an actual option, or more of an option than it was.

Anyway, I appreciate all the answers and this is one thread that perhaps is better derailed.

blackdoggotmytongue · 14/12/2017 00:10

Well, I guess the problem is that many trans people object to any form of 'exclusion' and reject 'trans'anything. So a person born as a male, who decides he is a woman, may not accept the table 'transwoman', as they view themselves as a woman, #nodebate. So hmm, yes I suppose ringle COULD view the term 'trans' or any form of 'T' in the acronym, as an insult, or indeed any acronym at all could be seen as an insult because it isn't blind acceptance of the use of 'woman' to describe a transwoman. But, (as we saw in the parody story) sometimes it's impossible to differentiate between sexes, which is actually required in real life, if as women we have any interest in maintaining statistics relevant to birth sex (as someone said earlier - if we add in all of the transwomen to the stats, medical stats referring to women-only concerns may appear to 'fall', so funding gets cut etc, similarly, rates of VAW, and rates of violence COMMITTED by 'women' (i.e. including trans women) alter. Born women lose the right to be treated by same sex practitioners, or to maintain same sex facilities for anything - changing rooms, student accommodation, rape crisis centres).
So a TRA may yell HATE SPEECH when feminists insist that transwomen are labelled as separate to women, but it's nothing about hate. We want transwomen to be supported, cared for and nurtured as transwomen. No hate. The necessity to differentiate is about concern for the women who are going to be impacted once the ability to differentiate is lost. Concern for women does not equal hate for transwomen. This is seemingly impossible to grasp. I have zero idea why.
TRAs WANT the ability to differentiate to be lost. Ergo 'trans' is hate speech.
It's not used as an insult. But it's taken as an insult and the response is 'bigot'/ 'transphobe'.

I have no idea if your comment 'you haven't acquired any knowledge' is aimed at me? I worked with transwomen for many years in a gender research capacity, but it was a long time ago. I count many transwomen as my friends (and they me.) I am as concerned for their future as the ideology is taken over by self-identification, as I am for women. I am entirely comfortable in the level of my knowledge.

But yes, TERF is a deliberate slur. As is 'DIAF. cis-scum'. Smile

WillowWept · 14/12/2017 00:11

Anyway, I appreciate all the answers and this is one thread that perhaps is better derailed

I whole heartedly disagree This has been a brilliant thread and a witty and warming anecdote to the constant barrage of abuse on the rest of SM.

But ringle hang around the board and when you’ve figured out what a woman is there will be plenty of women to talk to you

AssassinatedBeauty · 14/12/2017 00:20

@ringle changing gender doesn't require any medical technology. It can simply be a matter of presentation and identifying as that gender.

I'm wondering why you're interested in the medical side of this more than anything else.

@perfectlywretched I'm amazed that you think that at least half of the women posting here wish actual physical harm and hate towards trans people. This seems to be based on your opinion rather than any evidence or statements made.

blackdoggotmytongue · 14/12/2017 00:45

that's a really important point, beauty. And probably integral to ringle's understanding.
ringle, there is literally no medical intervention required. A fully intact male (with beard, penis, and any life baggage they have collected along the way - wives, children, conviction for rape etc) can decide to call themselves a woman. Because they feel like it. You seem to be stuck in the days I used to work in, where it required Gender Identity Clinics, Real Life tests, and a Gender Recognition Certificate to be issued, in order to be recognized as a member of the opposite sex. (Gender Reassignment Surgery optional (funding for the same under the NHS depending on your route through the GIC etc), but living as a member of the opposite sex absolutely mandatory until you were issued your certificate.) Potential changes to the Gender Recognition Act would reduce legal gender to self-identification and not require any medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, or any treatment.
This is what we are all concerned about. Not people who are genuinely unable to function due to their gender dysphoria who have been through medical diagnosis, therapy and medical transition. (My personal view is that whole process just cements dangerous gender stereotypes, but it does at least provide a framework for social integration, however problematic).

There is no 'medical side'. The diagnosis of gender dysphoria will no longer be needed, no treatment at all will be needed to call yourself a woman. And legally be protected as such. The 'actual option' of changing gender will be reduced to (indeed has been reduced to, in most places) waking up and saying 'I'm a woman now. Call me x'.
That's not to say that gender reassignment surgery hasn't advanced. Sure, it's interesting to learn about. But it is in no way mandatory or required.