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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

A letter to the TERFs

653 replies

Helen1111 · 13/12/2017 18:36

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To the women shrieking transphobic abuse on Mumsnet, in the name of women's rights,

Ten, fifteen years from now, when the world you wish for has come to pass, I ask you to remember me.

Remember me when you have your first baby and the trans woman by the bed next to you, who was with her wife every step of the way is consistently humiliated, dehumanised and denied her true value as a mother, because the best people can manage is to call her a facsimile of a woman, a pseudo-father, and she wishes that just for once, at this most transformative of moments, they would call her a woman, a mother, because that's what she is. But they can’t or they won’t, because they think that denying her the right to be a mother somehow gives them more rights or keeps them safe.

Remember me when your trans neighbour, who is waiting to have children before he starts hormone therapy, gives birth, and feels vulnerable and exposed, because the one person who would truly have been able to understand how he feels (and the best midwife on the ward) has been drummed out by transphobic haters who call her "a man in a dress.". Remember me when the doctors refuse to let your trans cousin see a female doctor, because they won’t record her sex as ‘female.’ Remember me when they laugh at her genitalia, when strangers ask to see what’s under her dress, when they force her to show them, even though her body is screaming no.

Remember me when your elderly mother, who is still reeling from you declaring her “lost to dementia” despite being every bit a feeling, thinking human being, goes into a care home and, despite having lived as a woman all her adult life, is called Sam, and cared for with the men. And even in her addled state of mind, she knows that she is Susan, and you know she is your mother, but you cannot object, and can only sit by while her confusion is compounded with depression, anxiety and grief.

Remember me when your daughter comes home from school crying, the daughter who has spent the last five years training to be the best athlete in her class, her school, her district, she's crying because transphobic mothers won’t allow her to run in the girls' race, but she can't go into the boys' changing rooms for fear of being beaten, and she knows it doesn't matter how hard she trains, she will never be allowed to compete, or even if she does, people would never accept her victories.

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis.

Remember me when your niece goes for a promotion, for a board position at work that's designated for a woman. She’s put in the hours, she’s worked so hard, she knows she deserves it. And the position goes to Lola, who has spent the last year subjecting her to transphobic bullying her at every opportunity, and making her life so miserable that she’s considered suicide more than once. Lola will never do anything inconvenient like needing time off to have surgery, or to recover from the latest transphobic beating she received when walking home, (though either of them could get breast cancer because it doesn’t just affect people who were born female).

Remember me when you read on the news that crime statistics for trans men and women being raped, murdered, beaten and driven to suicide are on the increase, and that, not only did you do anything to challenge or prevent this, but you spurred it on, in the name of women’s rights. Remember me too, when vulnerable trans women, who look for all the world like you and me, are locked up in male prisons and cannot escape, even though they are imprisoned with the very people who abused them and drove them to the edge.

Remember me when your son comes home from school and says that he's learned at school that you can change sex and that some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, and he tells you that this was the first time he ever felt like there was a truly place for him in the world. But then his teacher told him it is wrong and immoral to be like this. And you realise that all this time, when you preached transphobia, you were teaching others that your son was wrong, was a misogynist in women’s clothing. And you realise that your son, your wonderful, unique, son, will only be happy when you accept him as your daughter. Remember me when a few months down the line the teacher calls you in and says she's concerned that your son is depressed, that he is being bullied by people who were once his friends, but she doesn't want to have to involve their parents in this, because it’s really just a lifestyle choice and people should be free to tell him what they think of him, after all it’s really just protecting the rights of the girls in the class. But you are afraid – of yourself, your son, your friends, and you don’t know what to do.

In this brave new world that you helped to create, look around for your transphobic friends, the ones who called trans women “six foot men with stubble in a dress” and yet still claimed these ‘men’ were “benefitting from the patriarchy.” Look around and maybe you will finally see that this has cost trans women everything, it has made the world a harder, crueller place for them, and yet they still did this. Despite the odds, the pain, the abuse, despite never being considered to be one thing or another, they still chose to live as women.

And me? I'll be where I've always been. Fighting for all our rights. Fighting to tell you that you do not do this in my name. Fighting to undo the damage.

Watch your own backs, we’ve got ours.

OP posts:
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6
BeyondAssignation · 13/12/2017 20:37

I don't think mn will put it in classics. I'll add my vote though 👍

Backingvocals · 13/12/2017 20:37

Anyone, however “harmless” who takes it upon themselves to redefine women to include some men is a danger to women.

DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 13/12/2017 20:39

If you want women to have control of their genitals then that also means not denying trans women the right to have control of theirs too.

Eh? So before women are allowed control of their bodies and reproductive rights they have to fight for the rights of men? Wow. Sorry love but we're kinda busy.

therealposieparker · 13/12/2017 20:40

Actually I think any hoping to be seen as real women and having real women's rights are a threat. Any trans person who wants to replace sex based protections with gender feels is a threat.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/12/2017 20:41

Another vote for classics

It would certainly be interesting to see how well it ages...

YessicaHaircut · 13/12/2017 20:43

Remember me when you go into a toilet late at night, perhaps in a bar, and there's no one else around, and a guy walks in, he has a beard and is wearing jeans and a t shirt, and the way he looks at you seems off, and you feel afraid and unsettled and worried he might hurt you. But you can't challenge him, because the law says he is a woman, because he wasn’t born with a penis

So, this is a perfectly valid viewpoint, but women who raise concerns about biological males in their space are hysterical, transphobic etc? You can’t have it both ways OP.

PricklyBall · 13/12/2017 20:43

"Acknowledgement that the majority of trans women pose no threat to women's rights would make the world take your concerns much more seriously about the pisstakers to do pose a threat."

This sort of comment is infuriating, because all it shows is that the person making it has not read this thread or any like it. The current legislation protects both trans people (by allowing them to "change sex" for legal purposes) and women (by making the process depend on more than just the person's say-so, hence weeding out the piss-takers, and protecting a small number of areas where biological sex matters).

What all of us on here object to is the change in the law to self-identification, whereby any man, including the pisstakers and predators, can simply pronounce himself a woman, and there's nothing women can do about it. Not the woman in prison sharing a cell with a predator who's opportunistically taken advantage of self ID. Not the woman who's got a history of being on the receiving end of domestic violence who wants a women-only shelter in which to receive help for her PTSD. Not the woman who wants another woman to carry out her smear test. Not the woman looking at the 6'6" weightlifter who can lift twice as much as her in a sport she's dedicated her life to training for.

It is self ID that is the problem, not genuinely trans people. We have said this over and over again till we're blue in the face, but still you insist on attacking a straw man.

OpalIridescence · 13/12/2017 20:43

perfectlywretched you don't want genuine transwomen to suffer the collateral damage? I don't any damage to anyone.

If self identification goes ahead it will be women and girls suffering all the collateral damage.

Maybe you are comfortable with that?

Twas ever thus...

WTAFisthisshit · 13/12/2017 20:43

I definitely want to re-visit this thread in 10-15 years time and not just to laugh at fucknuckle!

perfectlywretched · 13/12/2017 20:44

Backing a lot of the feminists on here disagree. Many on here wish no harm and hate towards genuine trans women with body dysphoria.

I think people are getting swept along and want to support each other up on these threads, laughing along when there's a mocking post about stubbly men in dresses.

but it seems to me the hardcore 'terfs' are railroading the other, reasonable, rational, empathetic, kind feminists on here into agreeing that anyone transgender is wrong and bad.

Can anyone back me up?

Anlaf · 13/12/2017 20:45

btw in case anyone in future wants to see the post the OP is in response to, it is here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3108929-a-letter-to-the-woman-who-called-me-a-terf

Another vote for classics - at least that this shouldn't be deleted

ArcheryAnnie · 13/12/2017 20:45

Archery I am only on Facebook and I have only ever seen this discussed on mnet.

This explains a lot about your position, LEMtheoriginal. If you had been on any other forum, then you'd have seen trans activists threaten women in all kinds of ways - rape threats, death threats, photos of them posing with baseball bats and knives, threatening to "fuck us up". Doxxing, calls for women to be sacked, clarion calls to "punch all TERFs", "the only good TERF is a dead TERF", declarations that any woman who identifies as a lesbian is probably a TERF and should therefore be fucked up with the other TERFs...

Honestly, this is why when you come on here and claim that the comments on here count as "bullying", others here don't find this a credible or sensible characterisation of what is happening here. We haven't threatened anyone. We haven't told them they are a filthy cockroach and we are going to stamp on them like we stamp on all cockroaches, we haven't said they deserve to be raped, we haven't told them they should suck our cock. We are bloody Miss Manners compared to trans activists.

AssassinatedBeauty · 13/12/2017 20:46

How many people posting here do you genuinely think wish harm and hate onto trans people, @perfectlywretched?

GardenGeek · 13/12/2017 20:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BubbleLamp · 13/12/2017 20:49

You ain't no woman Bruv

TheBatPig · 13/12/2017 20:49

Perfectly. I certainly wish no harm upon, or hate trans people. But, I simply do not agree it is possible for a man to become a woman and vice versa. Being nice doesn't come into it, it's a simple acknowledgment of biological fact. What is hateful about that?

MadgeMak · 13/12/2017 20:50

This thread is utterly hilarious. Big fail, OP.

ThreeForTwo · 13/12/2017 20:52

It is not what trans people (especially transwomen) want to hear, but the idea that sex is irrelevant, and internal subjective feelings about gender (however strong) are now what matters is not accepted by many people (not just feminists).

People objecting to a transwoman taking a scholarship specified for women, or using sex-segregated facilities mean for women, are not doing that to be mean or because they want those transwomen to suffer.

They're just not yet sold on the idea that the transwoman's internal feelings, and heartfelt yearnings, are enough to actually put them in the category women. Everything else just follows on from that. But it's not meant to be nasty. No one wants transwomen to be attacked or put in danger or anything like that, which is why a lot of people suggest that safe third spaces would be a good idea.

The idea that 'woman' is something people self-define as is highly problematic. It is not a done deal that this is something everyone apart from a few nasty 'transphobes' agrees with. The unintended consequences, such as exposing women (and transwomen come to that) to chancers exploiting this new definition of 'woman' are too risky to make it something many people (whether feminists or not) will accept without question.

Telling everyone "you have to accept this or you're a nasty bigot" is not going to work. You either need to genuinely persuade people that it's ok, or accept that you can't have exactly what you want.

ringle · 13/12/2017 20:52

Add message | Report | Message poster perfectlywretched Wed 13-Dec-17 19:40:39
I think this response to the terf ideology is really powerful. Many of you admit on here you don’t have a problem with trans people. I think deep down you feel compassion and don’t wish harm and hatred on your fellow human beings.

"I think most of you appreciate the majority of trans women want to share women’s right rather than trample all over them.
Is it time to admit it’s not trans women with genuine body dysphoria who are the problem but the tiny minority’s of pisstakers who claim to be women when they are not? Surely common sense can weed them out? And we can start showing compassion and solidarity to trans women?"

I hear you and agree.

perfectlywretched · 13/12/2017 20:52

Assasinated I would guess about 50/50 but nobody is brave enough to say.

Even if five posters came on here and said 'I wish no harm to genuine trans women who were born in the wrong body' I would be amazed.

RebeccaWrongDaily · 13/12/2017 20:53

aw this is really lovely hun. Just one thing though.

The woman who's had a baby has a transwoman husband? Who is the bio father of the kid? So why would they demand to be call the mum? When they're having their arse reconstructed having birthed a kid they get to be mum, if they supplies the sperms then why lie to the kid you are its mum? And why make the bit about the actual mother and the actual first seconds of a human you MADE on this planet be all about validating your delusions?

such bilge, such self obsessed bilge.

IrkThePurist · 13/12/2017 20:53

perfectlywretched
I think people are getting swept along and want to support each other up on these threads, laughing along when there's a mocking post about stubbly men in dresses.

but it seems to me the hardcore 'terfs' are railroading the other, reasonable, rational, empathetic, kind feminists on here into agreeing that anyone transgender is wrong and bad.

Can anyone back me up?

No. If any of that were factual you'd already have evidence for it.

NotAgainYoda · 13/12/2017 20:54

Is this a reverse?

Terrylene · 13/12/2017 20:55

but it seems to me the hardcore 'terfs' are railroading the other, reasonable, rational, empathetic, kind feminists on here into agreeing that anyone transgender is wrong and bad

Can anyone back me up

No

I come on here a lot to read and see a lot of angst and compassion and have never seen anyone, 'hardcore' or not 'railroading' any feminists. Certainly not into "into agreeing that anyone transgender is wrong and bad"

In fact, people come down hard on anyone who makes any sort of sweeping generalisation about anyone. Can't say anything nasty here without being told to think about what you have said Wink

catgirl1976 · 13/12/2017 20:55

Sharon? Is that you love? Is the wasp back again?