Woman kicked out of Labour's Women's Network party because her views might make a MALE feel unsafe

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

twitter.com/DrRadfem/status/940396615008968704

This is what it has come to. A women thrown out of a women's network party because of a man, or more accurately, a boy's feelings might be hurt. What the fuck is going on?

it is possible the meme was made by the very person who then publicly shared it

I believe that this is the case too.

We have a great forum to speak relatively freely here on mumsnet. But anyone not here is forced into secret Facebook groups if they want to chat in the same way. And Facebook is much more oppressive for gender critical women, MTF trans infiltrate anywhere remotely female centric and it's very demoralising. Women get deleted and banned for expressing the mildest gender critical comment. It's awful. I've seen so many female centric groups do this.

But it's one thing asking feminists to not be inappropriate. Difficult but at least possible.

In other words, women be nice and know thy place, especially when it comes to social media. Men will be forgiven for a misplaced tweet or several, but for women it's an entirely different matter. Those tweets will stay forever and just cement the idea that women are stupid and only those women with lady brains and a penis are the ones that really matter.

Perhaps one of the actions should be to avoid social media altogether. An echo chamber soon becomes boring.

This forum isn't an echo chamber, that's the problem. We disagree in a civilised and intelligent way. We listen and we contribute.

We solve problems. I'm sure we can solve this one.

The Labour Party is a parody now. As a woman I could not vote for them. Which leaves not much choice at all. I won't vote. Oh wait, all those women that fought for the vote, and now I don't feel that any political party represents me - a white, middle aged, working class woman. Others inclusivity is resulting from others being excluded.

So what can we do to stop TRAs positioning themselves as vulnerable, oppressed victims?

I'm not sure we can really - we need to find another way.

Personally I keep posting evidence of their acts of abuse

I'm not sure how constructive that is as it feeds into the whole feminists hate everybody thing.

They are not vulnerable and oppressed though. This is as obvious as the fact that they are not women

The problem is, to many people this is not always obvious with the whole old fashioned biology argument.

I think this is something we need to really think about - we have a lot of experience on MN of which arguments work and which ones don't.

Personally, some arguments that I think work better are (andve not thought too hard about these so may well be wrong):

How do you tell the difference between a predatory male pretending to be a transwoman and a transwoman? (Neatly avoids accusing TIMs of being perverts)

Sports

TIMs in women's prison. Lian Brady.

NHS suicide stats

Gender gap / VAWG anything that is a study of imbalance between the sexes.

Girl Guiding trans guidelines esp the not telling parents

Scottish schools guidance esp reporting unsupportive parents to SS

The fact that the proposed.xhamges to the GRA (as Jane Fae said) won't make any real difference to transpeople. They already have rights and the current GRC requirements are a reasonable compromise to protect two vulnerable groups

I think the common factor with all of these is that it is not at all about being negative about transpeople, it is about protecting women's rights (and TW too)

Perhaps we need a single issue party like UKIP. So at least everyone who wants to spoil their votes (which I have seen mentioned a lot) has somewhere to put their disapproval?

Lots of men don't vote either and men did fight and die for the vote for them.

Don't feel bad about it. Time It is what it is.

Personally, I vote Labour because I think they have more of a conscience when it comes to those who are socially and economically deprived.

^n other words, women be nice and know thy place, especially when it comes to social media. Men will be forgiven for a misplaced tweet or several, but for women it's an entirely different matter. Those tweets will stay forever and just cement the idea that women are stupid and only those women with lady brains and a penis are the ones that really matter.°

Yes. Exactly. It sucks and is deeply unfair but it is what it is.

Personally, I vote Labour because I think they have more of a conscience when it comes to those who are socially and economically deprived

Yes. But the TRAs transcend politics. In public they are (afaik) supported by every party. This isn't about which party to vote for to support women in this because officially none of them do.

We need to transcend politics too. This isn't a left or a right issue. We need enough MPs of all colours to actually think about what this all.means.

I like your post It's,

I think the common factor with all of these is that it is not at all about being negative about transpeople, it is about protecting women's rights (and TW too)

TW have rights though. You could give them every right in the universe and there would still be a complaint. I'm not feeding this spoilt childish group. Many trans women are appalled by the TRAs approach. It achieves nothing but negativity - TRAs thrive on this.

Celebrating the birth of a child will soon be anti trans.

I think there are different aims here.

There is the main aim, of alerting the general public to what gender critical feminists are saying about the removal of women's rights and the imposition of gender identity and what this will mean in practice: rapists in women's prisons; male bodied TIMs as guide leaders, as intimate carers for your nan, in women's hospital wards etc; indoctrination into the ideology at primary schools. If you ever see these practical consequences discussed in the mainstream and outside of the pro- or anti- transactivism bubble, almost everyone is against them.

And then, for Labour members, there is the battle to prevent the Party introducing a self-ID definition of woman without any debate or vote at conference. Which appears to be the current big push - using Lily Madigan as the test case - by activists.

If we allow this to become a childish and crude meme battle (or selfie battle), then the general public is likely to turn off to both sides. They'll say - weirdo men in dresses vs weirdo feminazis so who cares? We need to stick to factual consciousness-raising with the wider public. And to win the Labour Party battle, as others have said, requires actual organising - CLP motions, emails to our MPs or prospective candidates and all the rest of it.

Either way, crude memes and secret Facebook groups that are more about bitchery than organising, aren't the way to go.

TW have rights though

I agree. I think that's a good basis for an argument as well, "what rights don't trans people currently have?"

If you listen carefully the TRAs often argue against themselves too, which can be used. Eg on the one hand, it takes years to get hormones / surgery so we don't need to worry about children Vs fighting for immediate access to these things

it is possible the meme was made by the very person who then publicly shared it

That would make perfect sense! That meme struck me as being made by someone of low intelligence, which certainly wouldn't apply to all the regular posters tirelessly and patiently posting on these issues.

It staggers me that people don't realise that Facebook is public domain, don't post anything you're not prepared to defend or apologise for. To be fair to Venice though she did instantly apologise and it would appear to be a case of entrapment.

In the times now

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/feminist-campaigner-venice-allan-kicked-out-of-labour-christmas-party-pqkqnfr76

It’s maybe worth a separate thread on what tactics do work. A lot of us came round on this issue after starting off from a less educated, “I don’t really know what’s going on here but it’s wrong to be mean to trans people, so you are ignorant bullies!” perspective, and can share what worked to wake us up about what was really going on.

But aren't women bitchy anyway?

How did we get here? Because women are too fucking nice and accommodating. And men know this. And women who are in relationships with men also do the compromising and know this, especially when children are involved. I should know, I brought up three children with a man who was once described as wonderful because he knew where the towels were kept - a real keeper him.

Fuck that shit.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5173577/Feminist-kicked-Labour-Christmas-party.html

Thanks Lisa

This jumped out at me

She has espoused anti-transgender views in the past, including posting a Facebook photo of a T-shirt with the slogan: 'Trans rights erase women's rights.'

Being seen as anti-transgender is not a good thing, and it means that any arguments you try to make can be instantly dismissed.

A man can beat his dog, starve his dog, torture his dog, and the most he'll get is a slap on the wrist. But if the dog defends itself by biting the man, it gets killed. We're dogs and should know our place.

I agree that women are being held to a higher standard. You can't expect to police what other feminists do.

In the Mail comments section, although there are a few supportive ones, there is a lot of what I was talking about above. For example:

TL;DR - SJWs turn on each other in oppression olympics.

The snowflakes are turning on each other now. Goes to show how unstable these people are.

Crackpots, the whole bl00dy lot of them.

This is not what we want!

Really agree with your posts ItsAllGoingToBe Fine

Women shouldn't have to temper our arguments so that they are perfectly composed. We shouldn't have to come across as unemotional and just logical. However, living in the sexist society that we all do, if we want to be listened to, we need to pitch our argument in the most palatable way possible.

I agree that we need a consistent strategy for engaging with the media. Are there any mumsnet posters who work in PR / political lobbying?
I think your points ItsAllGoingToBe Fine about which areas to highlight make sense. Sport, children being medicated, prisons etc

AGP men do seem to be driving the current really aggressive, misogynistic trans ideology. However mentioning them and their sexual orientation seem confuse those who aren't familiar with the rest of the issues. It can end up sounding like calling all trans people perverts, which is the polar opposite of the gender critical position.

I generally don't talk about the trans thing in person as I am so unbelievably angry that I can't talk about it in a calm way.

I use twitter to support gender critical views so that journalists and the media can see that there are people who aren't on board with the changes being made to women and children's rights. I write letters / emails when there are causes I think my input will help with.

However, I think if I could develop a palatable argument that I could speak about in person, I could probably convince a lot more people.

My DH who is gender critical (he doesn't use the description but is in his actions) can't bear me to talk about trans issues as I am so intense so I don't. I spoke about it to my brother recently and he levelled the 'emotional' thing at me too, despite saying he agreed in principle with most of what I said.

I think the biggest hurdle is come across as kind and reasonable while simultaneously waking people up to what is actually happening. No one I know in real life thinks that the changes happening will actually impact them in any way and that I am just being dramatic. They haven't researched or read up on anything though.

it is possible the meme was made by the very person who then publicly shared it

I believe that this is the case too.

Me too.

In the Tweet that is under the DS meme supposedly by Venice Allen, there are no punctuation marks that I can see.

DrRadFem almost always uses punctuation in her Tweets.

Guess who very rarely uses punctuation?