Primark changing rooms

[crikeybarker]

In the light of self-id as trans already overriding the exceptions to the Equality Act, Primark still has sex segregated changing rooms but proudly declare that they allow everyone to use the changing room of their choice. To me this is worse than the topshop mixed sex changing rooms as women and girls think they are safe in a segregated space but in reality men are allowed access on demand.
Primark refuse to answer my emails or respond to tweets about this and I don't know how else to get the word out and make them reconsider. I have a teen daughter and won't allow her to use the changing rooms while this goes on.
Anyone else concerned and fancy contacting them or advising me what to try next?

You could phone your local Primark and ask to speak to the Manager. Ask about their policy and point out potential dangers and your concern for your daughter. But unfortunately, unless there has been a specific incident, you’ll probably just get bland repetitions of their policy on inclusion.

Posting anonymously here...

I've been a bit on the fence about the whole trans thing so far. I hate the idea of heterosexual men being able to enter women's spaces alongside my young nieces through self ID, but I also feel that it's a bit harsh to deny privileges to trans people based on the potential misdemeanours of an entirely separate group (heterosexual men). I think most trans women just want to live 'as women' and despite all their vitriol it isn't them that pose the greatest threat (more the other men who would seek to abuse this loophole).

I was discussing this with my godson earlier and he made an interesting point which I hadn't thought of before. He said "what about the dangers of trans women passing as real women".

It got me thinking. If we are proposing to limit privileges for trans people based on the possibility that heterosexual men might try and imitate them, would we also be happy with theoretically limiting privileges or increasing scrutiny of natal women on the basis that trans women may attempt to pass as them in certain situations? Especially considering the links which posters have been sharing about the potential link between trans people and sex offences.

Obviously, women can't be banned from women's spaces, but how would we feel if we were to be hypothetically subjected to increased scrutiny/vetting in case trans women should try to mimic our identity. It's a tough one because if we felt this was unreasonable then it questions whether it is reasonable to castigate trans women for the potential actions of hetero men who would seek to mimic their identities.

Not sure how I feel about this!

Sorry, bit of a long post...

"...but I also feel that it's a bit harsh to deny privileges to trans people based on the potential misdemeanours of an entirely separate group (heterosexual men)..."

I'm not sure that being trans and being heterosexual are mutually exclusive so as to make them separate groups.

The issue is that you won't get to choose whether the person stripping off next to you is someone lovely and trying to just get on with living as a woman, or a nutjob who isn't trans at all and is getting off on stripping off next to a woman. Or a nutjob who went out today with the plan of 'fucking up some terfs'.

No. Thank you.

Fair point. I do get the feeling though that when most people talk about the dangers of self ID they are mainly talking about the risk of people using this law to 'bend the rules' rather than the danger being the average trans person - not that the two situations are mutually exclusive of course.

Was replying to bigole there...

So self identification hasn’t passed in to law as yet but companies such as Primark are taking it upon themselves to allow for it anyway? Then you could start by asking Primark what their PR department’s damage limitation policy is for the fallout from the first time a teenage girl or preteen girl or female child is sexually assaulted in their changing rooms by a heterosexual male (note NOT trans woman, just a bloke who isn’t and never has been interested in transitioning) who abused their forward thinking policy to gain access to vulnerable females. For that matter, what about a ‘just a bloke’ who follows a trans woman in to do the very things that trans women are scared of happening to them if they used ‘Mens’ facilities? This policy doesn’t protect vulnerable females but it doesn’t protect trans women either does it?

Sparkly.

Yeah, I get that. I suppose my point is that we are seeing a huge increase in individuals who are happy to openly identify as the 'opposite' sex, likely because of the changing attitude/acceptance of wider society. How do we separate the risks of a 'hetero' paedophile impersonating a transperson and the situation whereby a sexually deviant transperson impersonates a woman to gain certain access benefits (not just to changing rooms but any situation where being a woman might help facilitate deviant activity - e.g. it would probably be easier for a woman to abduct a child without raising suspicion since men are already viewed warily around schools etc).

I see them as slightly different situations. Self ID means that a burly bearded gent could stroll into a ladies changing room and say he identifies as a woman. However, what of people who want to use a more 'covert' disguise?

Sorry, didn't mean to derail...

Yes, the issue with self ID is that it will enable any man who feels like it to go anywhere he wishes to go into any intimate woman's space.

Women will no longer have the right to assemble outside of the presence of men. Or the right to receive hospital care, sleep on a hospital ward, receive intimate nursing care, undress in any public provisions, etc etc etc outside of the presence of any man who feels like being there.

Currently if a trans person applies for a GRC that means they have spent 2 years living as their designated sex and have medical evidence of gender dysphoria. Which is why for decades no one has looked twice at the occasional trans person in the ladies loos or worried about it. Self ID will mean in reality no longer even needing to claim you identify as a woman, a man will just be able to waltz in as without the law being passed people are making women's spaces freely available to men in anticipation.

Note too this affects women only. Trans men mostly prefer to use women's facilities. So in effect you have mens provision and everyone else's provision.

the cubicles have both doors and locks in most primarks so i have absolutely no idea what all this fuss is about. They are usually quite heavily staffed as well because primark have big shoplifting issues, so I seriously doubt any indecent behaviour would have much chance of going down. The indecent behaviour is usually het couples sneaking a quickie in a cubicle more than it is anything to do with trans people. Id worry more about that personally! Not a big worry tho seeing as the doors all have locks and theres loads of staff to chuck people doing stupid stuff out.

My Primark changing rooms are locked cubicles, so you don't get changed next to someone unless you want to

I don't like the idea of my young teenage daughter getting changed in a cubicle where she could be potentially followed in by a pervert because of this stupid policy.

I'm sorry but we need to be protecting our children before anyone else. This is a ludicrous policy and wide open to abuse. This needs to stop before a girl of woman is sexually assaulted and has her entire rest of her life ruined.

I still think part of the answer is for all women to gather all the guts they can and use facilities for men whenever they want.
I don't wear make-up, don't carry a handbag and live in trousers. I think I could get away with using male toilets and changing cubicles. If we did it en-masse I'm sure it would get people thinking! Subvert it.

The problem is though, the definition of 'trans' has changed.

Increasingly organisations, including the NHS, are broadening their definition of 'trans' to include anyone who 'feels' like a woman and/ or dresses like a woman.

Trans is no longer about that tiny group with gender dysphoria (who many of us would probably be ok with sharing female spaces with). It makes no sense. There's not even an attempt to acknowledge the complexities around this.

I don't like the idea of my young teenage daughter getting changed in a cubicle where she could be potentially followed in by a pervert because of this stupid policy

I don't know what Primark's changing rooms are like but if they are like M& S, Cos or Hobbs they are lockable floor to ceiling cubicles. Each person is "checked" in by an assistant , checking how many garments they have, and taken or pointed to their cubicle.

Maybe that's the solution. Universal changing rooms but well managed/policed in an unobtrusive manner.

lass
The last twice I was in M and S there was no one on the changing room door also Debenhams. I suspect that if they ,or any other clothes shop are short staffed the changing rooms are the place they wont bother about.

My primary just has curtains.

My local primark's changing room has lockable cubicles. It's a non issue.

I suspect that if they ,or any other clothes shop are short staffed the changing rooms are the place they wont bother about

That's not a good idea from point of view of shoplifting- take stuff in and hide it under what you are wearing- not everything is tagged.

If there is no one there, which does happen, I go and find an assistant and say I want to use a changing room. I don't just walk in.

This would put me off shopping in Primark. Or, I'd start going to the shop and just buying and returning everything I wanted to try on instead of using the changing rooms.

If enough people are buying and returning in massive quantities it will really bugger up their system. It's a big problem for retailers apparently.

Even with the lockable cubicles, it is a problem if women and girls are led to believe that they are in a female-only environment. As a teenager, when I used to go shopping with my friends, part of the fun was that we were in and out of each others cubicles, showing off the new outfits. It would never have crossed our minds that a man might be there, when we nipped into Sally's cubicle in our underwear to try on the dress she had brought in.

There have been plenty of times when I have opened a cubicle door/curtain to an assistant whilst partially dressed - if they are bringing me extra items, for example, doing a bra fitting or if I've called for help with a zip or something. I certainly wouldn't want to find a man there in those situations, and I wouldn't feel comfortable having typical bra-fitting conversations about boob size and how they look/feel in each bra if I knew that there could be men in the other cubicles.

Yes, I have been to places where the fitting rooms are unisex with lockable cubicles, but the difference is that I knew that when I went in, so I adapt my behaviour accordingly - I wouldn't open the cubicle door to my friend whilst in my underwear, for example, whereas I would in a female-only area.