Girlguides now in on the act

[W8what]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5117669/Girlguiding-issues-controversial-advice-trans-members.html

dropthemic

I know you’re at work, and can’t respond to comments willy nilly.

Could I just ask you, most fervently, to read the link below at some point.

It expands on my post. I have just read it myself as it has been posted on another thread.

It really does give you an overview of exactly how and why this has become a problem far exceeding that of accommodating men with gender dysphoria.

It gives you a timeline of the law. How and why laws have been amended. And explains exactly how they have come to be exploited.

notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/amp/

One of the things of which it has been almost impossible to conceive, is how to accommodate the rights of both trans people and women.

Largely because the trans lobby require total capitulation.

For instance, A Woman’s Place UK have listed five points that they would like implemented. All they really are is extending the exemptions that already exist. And culturally and socially making people aware of those exemptions.

Jess Phillips MP tweeted them and said they sounded reasonable. She has consequently been inundated with threats of rape and abuse.

I accept that you understand the problems here. But, if you have any suggestions, please tell me. I’m more than happy to consider anything that would help.

VerticalBlinds - I was not won over by what HQ said to me. They denied that this represented a switch from being a single sex to single gender organisation (it seems pretty clear to me that it is) and there was a strong undertone that if parents didn't want their daughters to join an organisation that had natal boys in it, they were bigots and so what if they didn't now join.

I've just read about this in one of the papers, and a spokesperson from GirlGuiding has said that they are just bringing things in line with the Equality Act - I'm really surprised that such a massive organisation hasn't taken the time to read the Equality Act which specifically notes exceptions for spaces like dormitories

Yes, but the organisation's view is that a person is the gender they say they are, from the moment they say it, and so a person who self-identifies as a girl is a girl and so can sleep in the girls' dormitory. Like some other organisations, they're changing or restating their policies to accommodate the changes to the law on gender recognition that the select committee recommended but which have not yet been debated in Parliament and not yet become law.

I am so perplexed by this. Are people saying that trans people mean harm to others?

I’m the case of trans identified males, they are just as likely to harm women as other males.

Their website says

The leading charity for women and girls

Join a collective of women and girls empowering each other

And has pieces such as

The pressures of growing up a girl

Every day, girls experience significant challenges, just because they are girls. We know that thousands of girls and young women face a perfect storm of pressures growing up today - from everyday sexism, sexual harassment and violence, to constant scrutiny of their appearance, double standards and a lack of positive role models.

And

In their own words, the Girlguiding Advocates explain why they’re campaigning to end sexual harassment in schools

Being groped in the corridor, hands up our skirts in the yard, being shown pornographic images in class, sexual comments about our bodies – as Girlguiding Advocates we know that sexual harassment in school happens to us and our friends and to girls everywhere.

And yet they do not believe that such a thing exists as female / girl / woman, except as an idea in a man's head. They do not believe that there is any relevance to the possession of a vagina / etc so HOW CAN THEY SAY THEY ADVOCATE FOR GIRLS????? When there is no material reality of being a girl or female????

I don't particularly see why harm has to be the reason for everything anyway.

Why should any one need a reason to not have to share spaces where they are going to be sleeping and changing with people who are anatomically different.

There comes a time where even with no negative experiences girls and boys will naturally start seeking spaces away from eachother whilst getting dressed. Even when they are perfectly happy to be around other people the rest of the time.

Note in the sexual harassment in schools piece they fail to name the problem.

It's invisible forces who are sticking their hands up girls blouses and saying sexually explicit stuff to them

I wonder who is running GG - is it moving away from its roots as a female org. I know that many other orgs where you'd expect women to be running them are now headed by men.

I do wish people would stop faking it so personally that we are some How accusing all teenage boys and ergo all their sons of being sex offenders.

It is nothing personal. And wabting to change in front of other girls or other boys is not some slap in the face and accusation towards the other sex.

Why are the Girl Guides NOT following the law and are choosing to make girls so vulnerable? What they have done is NOT part of equalities legislation - unless of course you have been guided by specific pressure groups who use false statistics and present subjective opinions as facts:

See transgendertrend here:

twitter.com/Transgendertrd/status/934721590234841088

Name changed for this. I, as my user name suggests, am a guide leader. I have been a brown owl with brownies, 7-10 yrs) and a leader with guides (10 - 14) and Senior Section (now 14-25 but in the process of becoming renamed as Rangers with an age of 14-18).
As far as I know, no one in my area has had a trans individual, although there are anacdotal accounts of them else where.
The membership was not asked about these changes from "single sex" to "single gender" although in the past has been asked about admitting boys, when the answer was a resounding "NO".

This issue crops up in various unofficial guiding FB groups and dissent or questioning the mantra of "they are all girls just the same" is closed down. The words "stupid" hysterical and ignorant are used. One said that "terfs can't be feminists". I and others have had their posts removed because we dare to challenge the vocal trans supporters.

For what it's worth, showers and toilets at all the camps and residentials I have been at have always been in separate cubicals, not open plan like the dreadful showers after PE in my old school. There are tough safeguarding rules on adults being alone with girls (you don't basically!) so all that is fine.
I really don't know what I would do if a trans girl turned up - I would be most unhappy about being responsible for taking them away. Teens will be teens, it's hard enough at mixed scout and guide camps with the older groups but the idea of them in the same tents - I would either not go or invest in some single person tents I think!
We are not supposed to inform the other parents or girls, or insist the trans person uses different toilets or sleeping areas.
Oh and a girl who becomes a boy? Has to leave.

It is seemingly impossible to challenge this.

"A girl who becomes a boy has to leave"

In all the shocking things I've read, that's the worst. An organisation that is supposed to support girls will ask one to leave because she is struggling with her identity?

Surely, surely that can't be true

It is the 'logical' end point to their illogical position though, isn't it?

You are a girl if you say you are, so you can be a guide. If you are a boy because you say you are, out you go.

Can I ask a question? There was talk upthread of the memarondum of understanding and that all therapy was about facilitating transition. I had a look on the Tavistock gender Id service webpage. Loads of psychologists and family therapists, about one medical doctor. Sounds like a lot of unpicking and not lots of hormones?

There webpage also seemed a bit more measured.

Have people direct experience of accessing services. Is it as uncritical as people seem to indicate on here?

munchkinmaster

I don’t think they are uncritical at all. The Tavistock are between a rock and a hard place. And I don’t envy them their position.

They are at the coalface and will be fully aware of the issues surrounding gender dysphoria. Unfortunately, they are being inundated with new referrals, now at 50 a week.

The memorandum of understanding puts pressure on them to not question someone’s gender identity.

Puberty blockers must be started as puberty commences. Otherwise they’re pointless. So the window of opportunity to decide is narrow.

Statistically 37 children a year will have gender dysphoria, but now over 2000 a year are showing up.

As it is subjective, and entirely dependent upon what the person says, diagnosis must be a nightmare.

So many gender confused children is a huge issue. Health professionals themselves issuing guidelines that say you cannot question it is only compounding the problem.

Here is a analysis.

www.transgendertrend.com/?s=+Memorandum+of+understanding+&submit=Search

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

Maryz here is the guidance. I have specifically asked if girls transitioning to make can stay in guiding and was told no.

The non-disclosure thing is interesting. Anyone can rock up to a girl guide unit, say they are a girl and join. Even if their birth cert says they are a boy. No-one can ask any questions, no mention needs be made of the word "trans".

You know, this might be useful for guiders with sons; no more worry about whether you can take your child on camp. No more worry about separate sleeping arrangements for guiders' children. Just fill in a form; no need for a female name/birth cert/anything, say they are a girl, let them all bunk down together

I'm being sarcastic, but on thinking about it, there are times it could be useful.

As an aside, I'm amazed at the person up-thread who said that there was no separation by sex on scout camp. That has not been my experience.

I see there is a link to Gendered Intelligence on that page too. It's all circular and becoming more and more inward-looking, this so-called "support system" for kids

Are people saying that trans people mean harm to others?

GG does not allow lone adults to sleep with children. Are they saying that all adults mean harm to others?

@munchkinmaster
The Tavistock does take a measured approach. As an institution, it has a strong background in systems thinking (which explores environmental influences such as culture and societal pressure/expectations) and so medical intervention is not a 'go to' approach. The majority of patients referred to GIDS do not get referred on to the endocrinology team, despite a lot of pressure from patients and families.
I don't think the MOU regarding not questioning someone’s gender identity in itself causes a problem for therapists because they have always worked with whatever identity is presented.
I don't think the MOU means that gender identity should not be explored, but rather it should not be refuted. The goal of therapy is not to ensure young people's gender identities align with their biological sex, not least because gender norms and expectations are socially constructed and so there is no reason why such an alignment is necessary for a healthy life. Despite this, 80% of patients at the Tavistock end up identifying with the gender typically associated with their biological sex. I think this could also be described as they end up feeling comfortable in their own skin in relation to their sexed bodies and societal expectation.

There are very strict rules in both guiding and scouting about any adult being on their own with any child or young person.
You absolutely are not allowed to sleep in the same tent/room at a residential or to "invite" them into your space if you would be alone
You cannot give a lone child a lift, for example.
At residentials adults and children normally have separate showering and toilet areas too.
This isn't because "they are saying all leaders are a danger to children" but sensible safeguarding.

I have attended a number of large scout and guide jamboree camps, they had always been seperate toilet and washing areas, unless the shower units have been fully enclosed lockable cubicles (solid doors no gaps). The "no going in other people's tents" rule is strictly enforced too - although with young members over 18 it's up to them!
Also, over 18's are not allowed to share with under 18's even if they are in the same ranger group.

Guiding, and scouting, do take safeguarding children very seriously, so I really am at a loss to understand why they are so happy to accept "they are all girls just the same".

A girl who has become a boy has to leave. Yep I agree with this if gg insist that boys pretending to be girls can join

This makes me want to weep. Schools. Guides. It's everywhere.

How can ANYONE not see that this is a matter of consent? They are teaching girls that they cannot have boundaries. How can they then even turn around and include consent in sex education? How can professionals deny the cognitive dissonance?

Apart from consent how the bloody buggery fuck are we even going to explain to kids how babies are made?

Massive national (if not global) safeguarding scandal which history is not going to look kindly on.

MsBeaujangles

Thank you for that informative post.

To me the problem is this. One assumes that the Tavistock professionals can weed out the genuinely dysphoric, from the genuinely confused. Despite the memorandum of understanding putting pressure on them to veer one way.

Two things concern me. The first one is detransitioners. Whatever those people told the professionals, the professionals judged them to be in need of medication. And they were wrong. Obviously people are slipping through the net.

The second one is the almost 100% rate of children who start puberty blockers then going on to cross sex hormones.

A hundred percent hit rate sounds less like a fantastically accurate judgement call, does it not?

Would a far more likely scenario be that puberty blockers actually increase the likelihood of going on to cross sex hormones?