James O'Brien: what a twat

[SelmaAndJubjub]

Explained in this link. Basically, he bullied and shut down a female caller who said she'd be frightened to share a changing room with men. He didn't just take an opposing view - he ridiculed her.

Yet another liberal bro reveals himself as a misogynist. And a stupid one. Even if he doesn't care about women in general, he has 2 pre-teen daughters. Will he really want them changing and showering with men?

@unbridledruth

Based on my experience of twitter, the people who use phrases like kill all white men are the same ilk who call people TERFs. I don’t think any of the gender critical feminists I’m aware of eg Sarah Ditum, Becca Reilly-Cooper, Glosswitch use provocative and violent phrases like that. It’s the TRA aligned feminists as far as I can tell, though I could stand corrected.

I also agree that there is a place for discussing issues which disproportionately affect men, notwithstanding these are far lesser than issues which disproportionately affect women. Shouting such concerns down with sarky remarks of “oh yes please tell me how difficult your life is as a man” etc is unhelpful but I think it is only a minority of people who do this if it is a legitimate concern being discussed (as opposed to eg complaining about international women’s day).

UnbridledRuth

I don’t know what kind of feminists you’re talking about. But you won’t find a single one like that here.

If women are turned off feminism, it’s because they are not reading the right stuff.

If that is deliberate, there is little one can do, except wait.

Women tend to turn to feminism as they get older. Sexism ramps up over a woman’s life time.

I just refuse to identify with a movement incorporating slogans like #killallwhitemen

I'm 99.9% sure that you're taking the piss here, but I suppose there is that minute possibility that you genuinely believe that feminists want to 'kill all white men'.

I've had a look at Woman's Place UK; Fair Play for Women; Rights of Women; Mayday; Women's Aid and the self-identified Women's Equality Party.

Nope, none of them have 'kill all white men' as one of their aims or slogans. Maybe you would like to have a look and find out for yourself what their actual aims are. You never know, you might even find that you do identify with these aims after all...

Every form of feminism everywhere has been accused of being man-hating, toxic and vicious. The Suffragettes got accused of all those things for wanting women to have the right to vote. If there was a magic way of feministing in just the right tone of voice so that people didn’t despise us for it, we’d have stumbled across it by now. But in truth, it’s not about the way we’re expressing our views and demands - it’s that we have those views and demands in the first place.

Beautifully put, 53rdWay

Yes 53rdWay.

Great comment. Sums it up.

Ruth, a round up so I'm sorry not to quote but that would take ages and I'm on a work break...

you've met really horrible feminists? I'm wondering in what way they were horrible?

you talk about men as protectors, but surely women required protection from other men, no other reason?

You talk about men taking up the fight "for obvious reasons". I don't know what those reasons are. Could you tell me please?
I see no reason women couldn't pick up stones, swords, guns or even their fists.

"women and children first" - I queried this when I was a child! It makes no sense! Children - of course, they are too little to look after themselves in an emergency. Women can look after themselves. Men might have instituted that rule because historically they found it very handy to keep women down.

If you feel women should have fought back more and earlier - is this not a brilliant example of women fighting back?

and if you are trying to play devil's advocate, why not start by answering the questions I posed -

what are the consequences if we don't go along with the GRA?

Why would any group of people fight so hard for the GRA in the first place? Acts of Parliament don't appear out of the blue like Travis in a Top Shop changing room. Men have campaigning for this for quite some time, with a very complex and fulsome strategy. What is it you think they want?

It seems extraordinary that such an underprivileged, reviled, fragile minority has managed to effect such far reaching social change in such a short time......

UnbridledRuth Wed 15-Nov-17 08:16:26
Trying to actually find a solution that accommodates both natal women and the trans woman who is terrified of using the men's toilet is going to much more productive

Most women here support creating a gender neutral third option, but trans people dont want that. The battle cry is 'trans women are women', and we just get shouted down.

All new buildings should obviously have loos that are individual cubicles. But the loo thing is easily solveable with good will on both sides. There are much more intractable issues that need to be addressed.

morning - too old? I've made friends on Twitter who are 70+. I know some people just hate Twitter, that's more likely to be it.

I'm going to email him tomorrow. I know him through work. When I first met him, I thought "oh you aren't a wanker like on the show" but apparently he is.

I pondered it because you know, work links, daring to be transphobic etc etc. But yes, I'm going to email him. It will take me ages to draft it but it will be from my personal email of course.

PS well I know him well enough to chat if we meet in the street but that's partly the joy of "pretending to like people you meet through work networks" thing isn't it. I don't mean we are good mates or anything, though I certainly didn't think he'd be like this on this issue.

Good luck Rosa. I'd be intrigued to know if he has thought about how life will be for his (currently pre-teen) daughters, if we lose women-only spaces. He mocked the caller for being scared of having a man in the next cubicle, if they are only separated by curtains, but will he really want his teenage daughters in their underwear with men able to see in?

I believe his elder daughter is now 11 so, sadly, she is probably already experiencing men leching at her and making inappropriate comments

morning, oh I see, you will get into it!

I can't publicly shame a person I know in my professional life. I might as well print myself a P45. Then again, I'm not in the habit of public shaming anyway really, I mostly use Twitter in a less angry way!

Only read first two posts - I always tried to change with one hand and hold the curtain with the other when I was teen / young woman. That's normal isn't it? Is he saying this is crazed and paranoid? Hasn't got a clue has he and oh what a surprise he's a bloke why would he know what women and girls do in changing rooms?

I suppose he can find out easily enough now.

Will now read on...

Just want to say I'm baffled at Ruth's idea of "toxic feminists". The ones I know are funny and warm and wise and brilliant. They're angry, yeah, but why wouldn't you be? And I've noticed many only really get it when they're a bit older. I had my first child in my early 20s and grew up working class which fast-tracked the awareness I think. Money can insulate women from sexism up to a point, as can putting off childbearing. It still hits though, like a fecking truck eventually.

Just saw this post

"There’s also the fact that “women” is a huge bracket encompassing many people and many vastly different situations - part of why I dislike the umbrella approach used by a lot of modern feminists."

It's not just modern feminists who are focussed on women I mean the whole feminist movement for always has been about women. And girls. This is a problem somehow?

Saying "feminism is about women and girls" is an "umbrella approach" and should be binned?

This is a joke?

I'm talking about the tendency to lump 'women' together. What about the majority of white women in the US who voted for Trump? Do you think they have more in common with left-leaning women than with their husbands?

What does voting for Trump have to do with this thread?

Derailing for Dummies was written just for you Ruth eh? Dummies being the operative word.

Yes, I do.

I'll probably just be called an MRA (in fact may already have been done) but I judge people based on their actions not what they say. Whilst people use the 'not all feminist' argument I'm not sure it would be so defensible if a political party had a small minority of Nazi sympathisers who went unchallenged.

I've just seen too many things I find distasteful. Feminists tend to scoff at men's rights and anybody who challenges this is an MRA. I'm talking about things like International Men's Day getting cancelled at York University the day after a male student committed suicide due to pressure from feminists. People like Jess Philips also scoffing at the idea on the basis that her colleagues are all male (as if these privileged MPs are the guys killing themselves).

I also remember watching the Warren Farrell protest. Young guy saying "my friend killed himself and I'm just looking for answers" whilst feminists scream "you're scum" in his face. Same for another guy who said "I just try and hear as many views as possible." Scum too.

I also remember reading about a local student (George Lawler I think) who dared to say that he didn't need to be told it was wrong to rape - pretty much RAINN's view. He was shouted out of his lectures for being "a rapist". Yes he was a bit silly putting himself in the line of fire but a rapist...really?

And the celebration of people like Emma Sulkowicz as a women's hero despite the accused having being cleared twice and the evidence looking a bit dodgy - e.g. her sending him friendly messages about attending a party the day after she was allegedly raped.

Feminists discussing reducing the male population - even if meant
tongue in cheek, a man would never get away with this.

Feminists killing Erin Pizzey's dog due to her suggesting that women can be as violent as men.

Little acknowledgement of the fact that US men have to sign up for the military draft to get the same voting rights of women.

I also read a recent thread on here where a guy was asking for advice from SAHM as his wife desperately wanted to leave the workforce. You'd think he'd asked for advice on how best to beat her. People were furiously asking him "why don't YOU leave the workforce" despite him having the explained that she wanted to be a SAHM.

I'm probably coming over as an MRA but I find that many 'feminists' seem to view the supporting of men and women's rights as mutually exclusive and will actively challenge attempts to help men. Having had a male friend commit suicide in recent years I struggle to align with this.