James O'Brien: what a twat

[SelmaAndJubjub]

Explained in this link. Basically, he bullied and shut down a female caller who said she'd be frightened to share a changing room with men. He didn't just take an opposing view - he ridiculed her.

Yet another liberal bro reveals himself as a misogynist. And a stupid one. Even if he doesn't care about women in general, he has 2 pre-teen daughters. Will he really want them changing and showering with men?

Otterturk,

Yes, I believe that it is largely the men who would’ve picked up the battle axes when neighbouring tribes tried to invade. Most men do actually want to protect women, even if this is a little patronising. This is evident in the ‘women and children first’ mentality displayed and also in the outrage most men exhibit when they see another male being violent to a female - one of my male friends actually got beaten up by three guys outside a pub whilst defending himself from his abusive partner (who is now thankfully his ex and on probation for assaulting her subsequent fella).

They’ve done social experiments on this (probably still on YouTube) and the reaction to a man hitting a woman is MUCH stronger than the reverse.

Otter,

I’d like to say that I wouldn’t be any more fearful of a genuine female identifying trans person solely because they had a penis, but it’s a tough question in all honesty. Partly because I don’t know whether to trust my initial knee jerk feelings.

For sure, most white middle class women wouldn’t have wanted their son getting dressed with a black man 50 years ago, but this doesn’t make it right, especially with the hindsight and progress we have now.

Protectors of women. Fucking spare me.

Your talking about men protecting thier property women and children just being sean as chattle. As in 'dont steal my gold or fuck my women ' NOT 'let me protect the rights and freedom of this wonderful woman who I of course treat as a equal '

I wouldn’t be any more fearful of a genuine female identifying trans person

So might you be fearful of a non-genuine female identifying trans person? How would you tell the difference?

Ruth you don’t have a full understanding of the situation. 1950s racism is not comparable to the plight of trans people. There are no similarities between a 1950’s boy and a black man getting changed together and a modern day girl and a trans women getting changed together. The trans woman could very well be a man falsely claiming to be trans to gain access. Women and girls are vulnerable. Cast your mind to #metoo.

This is simply a new new wave of misogyny dressed up as progressiveness. It’s ridiculous that women have been silenced or mobbed for speaking out. What’s needed is open frank discussion of how to protect vulnerable women and trans women. Trans needs don’t trump women’s needs.

@unbridledruth

I really don’t think the apartheid analogy works at all. Safe spaces for women, and the oppression and exclusion of an entire race based solely on the colour of their skin, are not comparable.

Besides, racial segregation is always wrong and was always wrong. Sex segregation for women’s safety isn’t wrong. No one is really arguing that it is. The issue is whether or not transwomen and/or gender fluid people and/or men who simply self declare they identify as female should be permitted into those spaces.

I think implying women who are concerned about these issues are somehow tantamount to racist apartheid enablers is pretty outrageous.

I think implying women who are concerned about these issues are somehow tantamount to racist apartheid enablers is pretty outrageous.

^^ this. The (inappropriate) comparison is made in order to reframe women as oppressors. It’s part of a calculating attempt at silencing women.

If being a white middle class women in the UK is just so awful why on earth would all these dangerous predators be queuing up to join the ranks of the oppressed? Surely they'd just keep on with all their raping and pillaging safe in the knowledge that they can get away with it? Why change and have to face all the many many dangers associated with being a female in 2017?

Because they get to claim to be a special kind of woman.

I have in no way accused anybody of being akin to an apartheid enabler. My comment on apartheid was an observation that attitudes change over time and that several decades from now transwomen may have integrated in a similar way and won't raise any eyebrows.

Given that there aren't currently security guards in most toilets to stop men entering, I imagine that the practical solution will be common sense and vigilance much the same as it is now. Granted, it will be more problematic if men can self identify but in reality I'd imagine that genuine trans people will be easier to spot. I mean, if a guy makes absolutely effort to dress/appear like a women then he is going to stand out just as starkly in a women's space in the future as he would now.

Yes, I believe that it is largely the men who would’ve picked up the battle axes when neighbouring tribes tried to invade. Most men do actually want to protect women

Snort. And who are they protecting women from? Men.

The history of humanity is the history of male violence. Which is why women and children need safe spaces.

I have every respect for men who gave their lives in WW2, but it was also men who raped hundreds of thousands of women during that war and overwhelmingly men who murdered 6 million people in concentration camps. So excuse me if I don't bow down in gratitude to my liberators just yet.

Women won’t be able to evict a non transwoman claiming to be transwomen because it will be seen as discrimination. Women will be cornered into allowing every man who has self certified as a transwoman into women only spaces. Therefore opening the doors wide to sexual harassment of vulnerable girls/women

Why are marginalised groups of men a woman's issue? Why don't we focus on male violence instead. Also what about Lisa Hauxwell, Davina Ayryton, they are transwomen who rape. How can I tell which ones are the rapey kind? I know they all aren't but all rapists are men and transwomen are biological males who retain the same pattern of violence as men. What about women's sports, girls sports?

With #MeToo trending and every woman I have ever met having a tale or two why is now a good idea to end same sex provision?

@UnbridledRuth Given that there aren't currently security guards in most toilets to stop men entering, I imagine that the practical solution will be common sense and vigilance much the same as it is now.

Ah, but we will not be able to be vigilant and ask the dodgy ones to leave. It will be us in hot water for doing so - a hate crime.

Granted, it will be more problematic if men can self identify but in reality I'd imagine that genuine trans people will be easier to spot

Oh good, so when I am in the altogether getting changed from swimming, I can leg it when I feel threatened. Then what?

I mean, if a guy makes absolutely effort to dress/appear like a women then he is going to stand out just as starkly in a women's space in the future as he would now.

And there would be sweet fuck all we could do about it.
Options 1: Stay and ignore our spidey senses tingling and then see what happens.
Option 2: Leave i.e be pushed out of the very spaces designated for us. Where should we go then?

You have your line in the sand too, it's just further along than many of us, because you - WADR - have not registered the real and very risky impact of what self-identification means in actuality.

That massive sweaty big bloke over there that keeps giving lechy stares at your tits and standing that bit too close for comfort, he's a woman. He says he is, so what's your problem? Of course he should be allowed into your changing room. Or to conduct your smear test. Or to sleep in the same room as your teenage daughter in a single-sex dorm.

^^ this. The (inappropriate) comparison is made in order to reframe women as oppressors. It’s part of a calculating attempt at silencing women.

I’m an unenglish, unmiddleclass woman - can i speak? Comparing concerns as being racist is straight out of the TRA handbook of how do shut uppity women - point 6 i believe.

Selma

Where we differ is that you seem to view men as some homogenous group.

In reality, the average Western woman has more in common with the average Western man than with a Muslim woman from Iran. Obviously not physically but certainly in upbringing and lifestyle.

The men who protected your freedom in WW2 are in no way comparable to or accountable for the actions of the men they were fighting. And that's before we even address the white feather women shaming men into service or the numerous female Nazis who were amongst the most sadistic and feared tyrants at women's camps like Ravensbruck.

Humans, like most animals, are violent and this is unlikely to ever change in the foreseeable future. Even if you create the perfect feminist utopia it will conquered by a more powerful and opportunistic rival without military deterrent.

I really think that a year or two of living under Sharia law would indeed make you grateful towards your protectors.

You seriously think that most blokes could just turn up and meet their mates down the pub in a dress. No drama.

THEY. WOULDN'T. HAVE.TO. Which part of this do you not understand exactly?

You seem very intent on presenting men as protectors of women, Ruth. So you seem to view women as in some sense vulnerable and under threat. So, who is it you think men are protecting us from? Who is it that poses the most danger to women’s safety? Who are the aggressors in most cases of violence against women and girls? Aliens? Sabre-toothed tigers?

If being a white middle class women in the UK is just so awful why on earth would all these dangerous predators be queuing up to join the ranks of the oppressed? Surely they'd just keep on with all their raping and pillaging safe in the knowledge that they can get away with it? Why change and have to face all the many many dangers associated with being a female in 2017?

Because these are dangers for biological women. It’s not being Travis and dolling yourself up in a woman’s costume that puts you in danger. It’s being weaker smaller and at risk of pregnancy.

Trans may be at risk from other-hating men but they aren’t at risk from women or because of their biology. For men not to understand this is about biology not feelings is infuriating.

Btw Ruth I understand what you are getting at. Most men are unaware of this and have no interest in exploiting women’s spaces. Most men are happy to use their strength to protect women (walking a girlfriend home for instance).

But as #metoo has shown most men have no idea how much aggression against women there is. And no idea what lengths men will go to to get access. They would be baffled by the idea of spy cameras in changing rooms or even just using physical presence to intimidate. But any woman who has ever been leered at and made to feel alarm or flashed at knows that many men use their presence to do just that.

And if you are not sure some men will try to exploit this look at the men insisting they are female to compete in women’s sports.

It’s not the decent men we worry about.

You do realise that I've at no point stated that I actually want men to be allowed unrestricted access to women's spaces, right?

I'm just pointing out that in the oppression olympics trans people will likely foster more sympathy than feminists who are already a minority of women and who aren't doing themselves any favours a lot of the time with their thing veiled man-bashing. If anything, the baby will get thrown out with the bath water.

Also, why are you talking about women in general as “you” and “your”, not “us” and “our”?

Yes you carry on your goady antifeminism Ruth. We see you. I CBA.