Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

By many of your 'standards' you could argue that I facilitated my wife's career as I was a SAHD. We did work pretty well as a 'team' in most things, as she was more organised and for many things I was more practical.
Now divorced it is obvious that I was not quite as 'lazy' as had been alleged, so little has been done to the house and garden and complaints about being run ragged. We could have 'semi retired' fairly comfortably but due to the divorce that won't be happening for many years.

That team comment earlier reminds me of my evil American boss who said "you are on my team I am not on yours"

kerala my ex boss (also American) came out with this particular gem after a rant about ‘leaving early’

Work first family second!

I pointed out it was only early where she was. Where I was it was 9pm

Foul woman.

Mine also spoke disparagingly of loser colleagues who "were still with their first wives". Shucks I miss him. Not.

At the moment it isn't generally accepted or common that you can work part time in a well-paid role. This has to change for men as well as women This. I am a sahm quite simply because when DD1 was born only I was entitled to well paid leave for the first year. I earned the same as DH. Finding part time work is difficult and when you do it's invariably worse paid than full time. There is no expectation of a reasonable work/ life balance in this country. It's bad for men and women, and most importantly bad for children IMO.

At DHs work he has one senior female colleague who has recently had a baby. The management have bent over backwards to help her have family friendly hours. I think this is great, as it's been difficult for her to reach that position. Unfortunately this has meant that her male colleagues (including DH and two other men who also have a baby under 1 ) have had to work longer hours because it's expected they just can and the mothers of their children will pick up the unpaid work they need to be done for their babies. So, the company thinks it's being all progressive but it's not because they are still refusing to recognise the responsibility of men to their children.

Just one thought though. Isn’t there also a risk to the facilitated bloke if the marriage breaks down? The risk that the kids basically love their mum more and take her side when they separate and he effectively loses his family/children

Yeah of course. You have to invest in your relationship with children. If you don't put the time in you won't get the returns. Another facet of the patriarchy is to convince people that only mums can really meet children's emotional needs properly and dads are just optional extras. The idea of a dad being someone who sees the kids for 30 minutes before bed when someone else has got them clean and lovely is pretty well established. Men themselves need to fight against this if they want better relationships with their kids.

Rollforneed, the brass neck of your ex! And what an idiot journo not to ask about your role!

He sounds like a charmer Kerala.

My friend who has a SAHW and is a senior manager in a small business gets praise at work for doing the occasional school run and going into work late. Usually he does this when he fancies a lie in after a boozy night out, and his wife gets the 3DC ready in the morning as usual, does all the work, he gets up and dressed just before they leave the house and gets dropped off at the station after the school run. FFS.

“Unfortunately this has meant that her male colleagues (including DH and two other men who also have a baby under 1 ) have had to work longer hours because it's expected they just can and the mothers of their children will pick up the unpaid work”

The problem is the employer’s poor resourcing decisions. The men need to raise the issue, eg by requesting flexible working, and propose solutions.

We facilitate men at work too. I work in a female-heavy environment and it's not uncommon for an older woman to do something herself rather than delegate it (correctly) to the young man whose job it is to do 😡

You're so right Windygallows - facilitated is what they are. I was talking about this very thing the other day - and we decided it starts when you're on mat leave... You're at home, so you naturally do the house stuff - and that carries on if you go back to work.

I knew it was unbalanced with DH - but it was only when he started working from home a few months ago I realised how badly.

For example, we kept the childminder on a couple of afternoons a week (because she's ace and so he could focus on work) and it's me who plans the meals she gives the DCs, passes on messages etc - despite me commuting for work AND HIM ACTUALLY BEING THERE. IN THE HOUSE.

DP works in a male-dominated industry with many “facilitated” men. They are able to work long hours, travel regularly, at short notice, have active networking “jollies” eg golf trips, nights out etc. No days off to look after a sick child for them, eh? And god knows what these men are doing on business trips...

All because they are facilitated by women who are actually very happy with their lot - not working, children in nursery a few days, cleaners, shopping, interior decorating, gym, yoga. They think they are “lucky” they can stay at home & don’t need to work.

Meanwhile, in the real world, I feel men haven’t evolved over the last generation, probably because they don’t want to. A generation ago, most women didn’t work, but the vast majority do nowadays. Women have evolved tremendously, taking on a working role, whilst men haven’t stepped up at home. Because they don’t want to do the shitwork.

I find men of my generation deeply depressing (I’m mid-40’s). They don’t really “own it” at home, having to be “nagged” —asked repeatedly—to do things. I know very few of my circle have equal relationships where the man really pulls his weight. It’s just dismal.

I think our generation has been utterly screwed over. “Having it all” means “doing it all yourself”.

I have done that, in fact I am currently a trailing spouse. I am happier working at least part time and sometimes I do look at my life and think how have I ended up here. I worked hard at school,have several degrees, a professional qualification, I have walked away from my professional registration in the U.K. and am currently filling my life with housework and too much mumsnet. I shared this with DH that I wasn't sure if I would make the same choices again and he was really surprised. He is much more sure than me that my choices are best for dc and family. Thankfully I can get a visa to work but any job I got would have to fit round dc and other house stuff as I would only earn a fraction of dh's salary. On the plus side he does value what I do and is appreciative, but I never wanted to do this. Although to be fair I love living abroad.

Yes our generation has been screwed. If I went back to work I know I'd still carry the mental load and do most of the "wife work" plus commute plus earn less than I did pre-kids. My quality of life would be non existant. But yes, I carry the risk that if my marriage goes tits up I'm screwed financially. So I either do it all, and run myself into the ground, or take a gamble. Not equality in my book. But it's not perfect for men if they love their kids and want to spend time with them, either. I do think men get the better deal, but it's pretty shit for everyone to be honest.

indeed I agree with that totally and think my DH would too.

I love the idea of us both working part time in well paid jobs, but the reality in the UK is that this just isn't possible in general. We both had reasonably paid jobs before kids but not jobs that are easy to find positions part time, and part time positions tend to be paid worse than full time in my field for sure. Some people manage it but they are the rare exception.

Fantastic thread, OP.

Ravenheart, yes I got to the same place as you, via the same route...

Which is the same place my mum arrived when she was my age, and the ace I never planned to go

I feel I have just enough work experience to know that most jobs are a bit shit, and a career isn't all that either.

I shouldn’t have read this thread, but I have and now I can’t help myself! Why do you all have such low opinions of men with SAHWs? And why do you look down your noses at SAHMs?

I totally understand the frustration in the OPs post - once I was a relatively senior woman and yes, it was lonely and all my colleagues had wives at home. It sucks. I also wish that society made it easier for women to choose to be the main earner and for men to stay at home if that’s what they want. I hope that in the future it’s more of a choice and less of a default.

HOWEVER there are biological realities which many posters have alluded to where young children at least are concerned. Not all SAHMs are exploited miserable drudges and not all men with SAHWs are exploitative ingrates. As much as that doesn’t fit the narrative. Some of us are just lucky to find that the default traditional set up suits us and our families.

I’m a very happy SAHM. I don’t need anyone’s pity, sympathy or sneers, thanks. I respect women who work and I deserve the same respect - my job isn’t any the less because it’s traditionally women’s work, or because it’s unpaid.

This thread has touched a sore spot.

8 years ago my husband set up a business. We, as a couple, took this risk - I'd just had our second child, and no plans to return to work. Our risk.

2014 I started working part time to keep the administration side going. At that time it was the two of us.

Earlier this year I was told it would be better that I left and he employed someone who could be there throughout the year. I was term time only - although still working from home for my 12-16 hours a week. I agreed.

He is now in the habit of swanning in at 8pm - it has caused many rows. We rarely do anything at the weekends. He gets hurt if I go off with the kids somewhere because he's working. He can't see that if I wasn't here he would not be able to do this. I do his washing, ironing, make sure there's food, run around after the kids, manage his home diary, the list goes on.

Before I stopped to have the kids I was an executive level PA - I've been looking around and if I worked full time I could be earning more than him, and have so many more benefits. But no, I have to let him be the big I am. Sick of it. He's off on a business trip next week for 3 nights. Perhaps when he gets back I'll go away for 3 nights.

Yes. He's a 'facilitated man'. And I hate it.

little this isn't about sneering this is about what happens to men when someone does their laundry for 20 years, so long it's just expected and normal, and all the privileges it brings.

How old are you? 20s? Early 30s? I think it's easy to be optimistic so young. As you get older you see the fallout plus the swagger and entitlement that men get after decades of being looked after.

You talk of biological realities, there is another reality and that is that the unpaid work you do benefits the paid work of someone else. And it's unpaid.

And should you ever need to survive on your own, unpaid work won't help you do that.

No one is looking down their noses at SAHWs @LittleKiwi. If that's what you've taken from this thread, then you clearly haven't read it properly.

Brilliant thread....

My mother thinks that men just don't know how to organise stuff at home and be 'on' in that way. Drives me bonkers. She is still living the life she learned as a child in the 50's and 60's. I dont understand the mindset at all. To my detriment possibly.

I argue back that they can manage to be well organised in work....so why could they not apply similar skills at home with their children?

I'm separated because although he did some stuff around the home, I was still 'Chief Cook and Bottle Washer' in addition to the emotional labour, all DIY, facilitating his hobbies etc. He expected me to organise him and i absolutely hated it.

A clumsy attempt at explaining that i believe some women facilitate the 'learned helplessness' and that this does not help their situations in the long run.

My way of contributing to the social revolution is teaching my boys that i am not their servant.. .yes i love, care, feed and clothe them but i remind them daily to pick up after themselves. They contribute to household tasks and we support eachother. Might be a bit cold of me but i see it as my duty to raise considerate and responsbile men who will be self-motivated and respectful of women's rights and responsibilities too.

Not intending to be smug by the way ... ive paid a high price emotionally for my beliefs and I fear for my childrens' futures because ultimately, I chose to not accept the role that was being foisted upon me.

I am however, very grateful to my mother and father for insisting, gently at first and then with more vigour, that i should stay in the workplace, that the thousands spent on childcare was an investment in both our careers and i would appreciate it one day. So true.

Work sucks. Everything about it is organised for the benefit of nobody but senior bosses. Most jobs could be done mostly from home. Most jobs could be done part time. If we’re all going to work for fifty or sixty years (20s to early 80s) there is no need for quick promotions for arseholes. There is no reason why people shouldn’t go very or a bit part time when they have small children or later in life sick parents. We could all easily earn less and have eight weeks holidays instead of being given more money to buy useless tat or bid up house prices with.

It’s time the workplace was reorganised for real people.

As for SAHMs and “facilitated Dads” it’s their choice. Presumably the facilitated Dads are supporting the SAHMs ?