Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

The only way I can see it stopping or at least becoming easier would be to go the same way as Asia.

Women there have stopped having babies, and those that do just have one. It is doable with one child at a stretch but many more and it does become hugely demanding.

My Asian friends see no point to getting married either as they have every thing they need financially and can't be bothered to 'run' after a man, and look after him. I wonder if they are ahead of us in this respect.

The other thing I noticed was how feminine they still are in the work place, they do not feel they have to do it the man's way....they doing things on their own terms. Quietly spoken, not joining in with jokes if they don't want to and gentle authority. I hope my girls grow up to be as strong, independent and graceful as they are.

Well done op.You are doing great, whatever disadvantages you are up against. You won't always have little children and can shine in a few years when they are older.

We’ve both just finished work at 7 and 7:30 tonight. Dh picked up toddler ds and then sat him on his knee and distracted him with stuff while taking one call while I had another. I then grabbed ds when I finished at 7 and bathed him, dh is putting him to bed (dh does wednesdays...)

I asked him if ds had disrupted his call. He said no, he’s been good. I asked him anyone would be likely to say anything. He said “well I’m pretty sure senior management would be wondering why my wife or nanny hadn’t taken him.”

So there we go... he’s obviously aware of the facilitation issue. We were joking just now about the armies of helpers snr management have.

My DTs are nearly 12 and it's not easier. It's harder in many ways. I haven't shone since before they were born yet was so fiercely indepedent before....

Littlebird, you're right. I used to fear that I wouldn't become a mother. Feared it so much that I settled down with a control freak at 29 and had 2 dc by 35. Now I realise I should have lived a better life and had one child if that didn't curtail my life too severely.

There’s a huge difference between 1 and 2, isn’t there? Many women stop working after 2, as the economics don’t add up (in terms of childcare/work).

The hospital consultant I work with has one child age 3. She admits she couldn’t do the job if she had more than 1 child, or if her DD was a high-needs child.

Can you imagine a male consultant saying h couldn't do his job if he had more than one child? It is literally unimaginable. This thread has been excellent and enlightening (if depressing). But you have to name a problem before you can solve it, so there is no point pretending it isn;t an issue, even if you aren't personally affected.

I completely concur that the motherhood penalty / facilitation requirement steps up more than a few notches after the first child - I imagine it continues to do so with subsequent ones, but perhaps the 1 to 2 change is the harshest?

But for parents of multiples like me there's no choice. Your plans go tits up!

Mens’ plans don’t: they usually just return to work!

It's not just economics though, some people don't want to juggle their dc between calls, having not seen them all day.
For us half an hour a day wasn't enough as we are a family and like spending time together.
Anything less than the full day between us, just wasn't for our family.
If both facilitate each other to do what they want with their time, then to me there's no problem helping your partner to work at the level they want to.

I suppose the one saving grace of multiples is that they are in the same school year, and probably / potentially the same school, so at least that helps with the having to do more than one school run....?

But yes, hats off to parents of multiples. It's not a coincidence, I don't think, that of the 8 friends I know who have had twins, only 1 has subsequently had another child.

I definitely decided 3 would be a step too far and several pp have said it was after child 3 that the mum stopped working.
Whereabouts in Asia have you witnessed this phenomenon?
Any chance of a follow on thread? This discussion has been fascinating.

Agreed Chemi. I thought I was alone and just sharing this feeling of disparity and (I'll be honest)growing contempt is helpful.

I only know one person who had another baby after twins. It was more twins.

She got sterilised after that. And she needed surgery on her back.

I think multiples are pretty brutal in the pre school years. I went back to work part time but not for the pay. Longer term I think it may be easier than differently aged dc. Having said that we felt in the end they were enough.

gilly my DH can't facilitate my career because he doesn't have any time left over after perusing his own. He would like more time with his dc and I would like more time for my career but working life seems to be set up for 120% for a developing one or part time for a flatlining one. The trick must be to pick an equal paying career and then not fall into part time habits after dc.

Equal paying doesn’t do it. The only women I know who have kept their careers after kids are the ones where they earned much more than the husbands (and can so can offset the pressure to take a step back). The men all kept their full time jobs too by the way! Quelle surprise!

Pretty much all my peer group have now quit work / gone part time after kids and they were all equal career wise to husbands before eg both lawyers / accountants. Totally unfair!

Op can we have a follow on thread?

Cheminotte the reduced birth rate is happening in Japan. I think it's due to old fashioned ideas about women's roles combined with a ridiculously hard and long houred work culture.
The government is getting worried as they have virtually no immigration either.

squirrel in an odd way that makes me feel better personally as DH always states that he would be happy to have the part time /not working role if only my career field payed the same. I have my dark suspicions about the validity of this claim, he hates routine, dull work and enjoys the status he has in his work place, not to a crazy level but I think he would miss it.

He came back from Japan a couple of months ago talking about the issues with dropping birth rates no immigration to speak of. I wish had read this thread then.

Mum I wouldn’t believe it till I see it! My dh says he will do it (go part time) when we have a baby (we have my dd age 12 already) but I’ll be in shock if it actually happens! And I make 4x what he does.

mum

I get you, sorry. I'm on a completely different wave length but no judgement intended.
I never wanted a career with kids, it wasn't for me at all. My dh facilitated me being a sahm which enabled me to facilitate his career.
It hasn't brought us huge earnings (partner in business), but we are happy and know we made the right decisions for the family.

I have absolutely no experience what it's like to work, and look after small children. No experience of childcare it wasn't for us, made sure they socialised though.
I take my hat off to young people today. I have young adults who I believe will be parents within the next 5 years or so. I'm ready to help out where I can and admire my future dil's, they are great. I know they will make the best decisions for their family too, whatever they will be.

Part 2 here

(Look at me being all helpful and facilitating )

In regard to using the "childrens' heads as battering rams":

Half of those children are girls who will be stuck in the same rut as the mother (or are already in the type of cultures Olenna lives in and I was born in), unless enough people make an effort to change the status quo. If suffragettes and birth control activists had used this kind of logic 100+ years back - their daughters would still be chattel + breeding cows today.