Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

It's the old 'women having it all' conundrum isn't it? Men get to have careers, 2-3 happy, well cared for children, a nice home and a social life. What would women need to have all the above? They would need a wife! I say that tongue in cheek because they don't need a female wife, they need a partner who would take on the wife work. And men just don't seem prepared to do that.

I'm academically gifted and excellent at my job but - I only have one child (a decision made precisely because I didn't get that necessary support from my partner and knew my career would be sacrificed if I had any more) and my career is fairly low status and low paid (aka female dominanated) because I have a kid to raise. If I didn't have a child I could have flown high in the world but there it is.

Why is 'workplace' success seen as so much more important than any other success. I would suggest that the fact it is is patriarchy in action.

You could argue that many women have their lives with their children, (and often hobbies, social life small businesses, volunteering) 'facilitated' by the men working and earning money. (This has no less value and frankly the fact it is seen as such is patriarchal bullshit)

That's probably why people say they 'are a team' they are facilitating each other mutually to have a life of their choosing.

Why don’t men notice the lack of toilet folks, presents and card that need buying etc? Because they choose not to.

I think a good starting point is acknowledging this fact. Because the FT working women I know who have PT/SAH male partners are not nearly as supported in their roles. Their husbands don’t care about their wives careers, they don’t do the shopping or the cleaning or the general wifework. They do the cooking and everyone tells them how marvellous they are.

I wonder if this same dynamic is seen in same sex couples, one taking on the wife work, the other progressing career-wise.

I've often half jokingly said to dp that I'd rather have a wife.

I facilitate my husband, I wish I could take a stand and ask that he does the same for me. Unfortunately if this happened it would set our family back significantly, we wouldn't be able to do many of the things we can because of that.

On top of this the pressure to find a job is immense, so I have to facilitate, be around for holidays, pick ups etc etc and work? The only jobs that will allow this are part time administrative jobs, which is soul destroying.

Would another option be insisting on a certain number of flexi-time positions for men or women at higher levels?

What strikes me about all the “ We’re a team “ couples is that it’s only the woman who thinks they’ve are a team.

None of the men think so . I’ve never yet heard a man acknowledge that he has achieved his success because of his wife at home doing all the housework and childcare and wifework. If anything, they will tell you that they do “ their share “. Which is true in a way because in their eyes their share is about 1% and they do 2% .

And when they divorce ( what is it now, one half of marriages ? ) then they NEVER say “ Well of course we were a team . Naturally half of my earnings and pension belong to my wife and another share to the kids until they are finished uni”.

It’s all about how they have supported her and allowed her to stay at home doing nothing. And it’s her fault she has no career because she failed to get one of the many well paid board level jobs where you can work 10-2 term time only with all inset days off and unlimited last minute sick days.

It’s not “ a team “ if it benefits one person and disadvantages the other. That’s exploitation. Even if the exploited person says they don’t mind / it’s their choice / I can’t imagine it any other way . Doesn’t change the hard economic facts.

Bang on @Kr1st1na

I have friends where the wife is a City high flyer and the husband is a SAHD. He really does all the food shopping, children's clothes buying, making things for the school fete etc, but this is v rare in my experience. Plus a) they have enough money to hire a cleaner and a regular babysitter so he gets to do some hobbies and b) she is much more involved in the details of the children's lives than most men in her type of job would be. (Because she wants to be involved, obviously!)

Excellent post. I agree totally. To this day I hear statements like "but he puts food on the table" from some people, like it's a lone effort.

Also, if a man has grown up like this, watching his mother do everything for him and his father, that will be the expectation, further down the line, when this man marries and has children of his own. It simply gets perpetuated.

It's perpetuated from above, that's for sure.

DH had a spell of needing to leave work on time (not even flexi or early) to pick up one of the offspring. His boss actually jeered at him, 'Don't you want to play with the big boys?', meaning that all the other blokes there would be staying late, going to the pub and missing wifely things like bedtime.

DH came home quite anxious about this and saying that maybe that was what it took and he 'didn't have it in him' to be a massive success like Big Bollocks Boss.

Big Bollocks Boss was divorced and spent half his pub time complaining that he never saw his children.

The current (female) CEO seems to manage quite well without jeering at anyone or needing to whinge in the pub, funnily enough.

if it's true choice, how come it's almost always the woman who 'choses' to reduce hours at work or give up work and not the other way round?

Kr1st1na, that is a bleak picture. Thankfully it is not always like that.

We are a team. One of the things I do is the finances. All assets (savings, cars, investments) are in my name. After all DH has his job to fall back on and I would not have taken this role without any kind of financial independence for myself.

What you say does happen, but I know many "teams" like ours, where it seems to work.

And I would never advise anyone to take on a SAHP role without any financial back up. Never a good idea to let one partner hold all the cards!

But yeah, the team set-up can work.

Of course it’s a feminist issue, and choices are not made in a vacuum.

That's probably why people say they 'are a team' they are facilitating each other mutually to have a life of their choosing

But WHY is it disproportionately women who choose the life of wiping arses and mummy baby groups, washing dishes and school runs, while their husbands get to be intellectually stimulated, get recognised in their fields and have all the shit work done for them?
You think these choices happen in a vacuum?

I bet there’s very few women in your position who have put those financial safeguards in place though @Therealslimshady1

AdalindSchade

See you are falling into the same trap, why is looking after your children seen as so rubbish.

But WHY is it disproportionately women who choose the life of wiping arses and mummy baby groups, washing dishes and school runs, while their husbands get to be intellectually stimulated, get recognised in their fields and have all the shit work done for them?

How about we rephrase that:

WHY is it that disproportionately women choose the life of spending time having fun with their children, teaching them about the world, socialising and pursuing hobbies while men are stuck in boring board meetings doing endless paperwork.

I don't think it's rubbish but it's not the same as having a high powered career
Anyway I can't find the energy to have this argument tbh maybe someone else will pick it up

This is an eye-opener.

I agree that it’s not a choice. When my husband and I got married, we earned very similar wages (we met at work actually) doing a broadly similar job. Since then my wages have completely stagnated - due to having two maternity leaves, and then going down to four days a week and so being ‘trapped’ in a role I’d outgrown years ago. By the time I was made redundant last year my husband was earning twice what my full-time salary would have been.

I’m now working from home and trying to squeeze in my own work round my facilitating duties. Because now my career comes a very poor second to his - just because of money really. So yes it ‘works’ for us but I didn’t choose it.

Actually I’m away this week and have had to leave lengthy and details instructions for my husband (who has also had to take the whole week off work) about homework and dancing and birthday presents. I think it’s been an eye-opener for him, too!

@DoubleRamsey - because they are making themselves hugely financially vulnerable. They have no pension, no potential for earning a decent salary after being out of the workplace for so long. Their sole role is enabling others - their husband and their children become successful.

I think that’s a real issue and it needs to be recognised.

Fair enough you don't want to argue AdalindSchade

But please just think about how patriarchal it is valuing paid 'high powered' work over caring for children considering the biological differences between men and women

This is one of my biggest issues with the beloved father of my children.

He doesn’t understand how free he is because I do all of my studying from home. He goes to darts, football, works all kind of varied hours and is at the top of his career.

He doesn’t understand that it’s due to me being able to look after his children that he can do this. If I worked I couldn’t just do overtime/ late nights at the drop of the hat because I’d be expected to deal with the children.

Even when we were separated he would cancel seeing the kids last minute due to work, or miss weekends even though I had uni/work. Therefore I had to deal with finding childcare or missing work/uni.

Even now I resent him for not understanding the freedom and life advantage he has because a woman is on call to take on his share of parenting.

Haven't rtft op, but if a man is being facilitated by a stay at home wife/parent then that man needs his career to advance quickly to replace his wife's lost income. Did you consider the downsides - stress of being the sole earner, less time seeing own children, as examples?

I'm not really sure what your gripe is here. It's like being jealous of someone because they have both sets of very involved grandparents on their doorstep. We all have different circumstances and we all do our best under those circumstances.

If you think about it from a business perspective, an employee who is "facilitated" is available to the business 100% of the time. That employee can go on anywhere at the drop of a hat, work overtime with zero notice etc - pretty valuable asset for a business to have.

Anyway. Try to be happy with your own life and make changes if there are areas upsetting you. Rather than being jealous of someone else. You don't know everything about your boss. The grass always looks greener.

We are a team - somewhat, still lopsided but more a team than ever. It's taken us 20 years to get here. We both work and both wipe snotty noses and add bog roll to the shopping. I still 'see' a lot more than he does but he does pull his weight at home - more and more everyday.
We both work, are in middle management earning decent salaries. He knows that he is never going to get in the upper echelons at work becaise he has to much to do at home. We share pick up, drop offs, gp appt, dentist etc. Even though I am doing more than him I am not facilitating him. We are both enabling each other to work and see the kids...

Sorry - am rambling and not saying this very well!!! My point is that he sees that in order to get ahead, he would need to stand on my shoulders and not have time to see the kids. I think people know this but choose to ignore it.

I ended up in the position of Home maker and facilitating my husband. I supported his business, did the paperwork, computer stuff, looked after 3 kids under 6 etc etc. He did nothing at the home or with the kids.
I went back to work part time but he made life difficult and still wouldn’t pick up the slack. His attitude was I didn’t need to work and his mother was happy at home looking after house and children and therefore I should be.
We are now divorced and he believed that I was entitled to nothing because I had been at home doing nothing.
I am with new partner and he is the complete opposite, he is very hands on with children, arranging stuff, cooking and generally being good. He facilitated my career and is very supportive. It can work both ways but definitely rarer from what I see.

orangealien didn't take too long for someone to come on and say that I must be 'jealous', the famous trope that always crops up on Mumsnet.

Why exactly are you on a feminism thread???