Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

It isn't necessarily women being their own worst enemy as well, this is people surviving in a society and workplace culture made to suit default males.

The thing is- that this also disadvantages other women. The women who don't have that support at home, who have to go home at 7 and THEN cook the meals, iron their clothes for the next day, organise the household, put the bins out and then catch up with some work at midnight when the house is quiet.

Meanwhile, the men in the office come in well rested with perfectly ironed shirts much more prepared for a day at work.

And as for assistance- when our FEMALE boss left, the new male boss got TWO assistants instead of one- because of course he couldn't type his own letters could he?

No it’s not only men who can be facilitated - there’s absolutely no reason why a woman can’t do it in theory

The questions are why is it so rare for a woman to be able to? Why is it really hard even for couples like mine where we try so hard to be equal? Why is it assumed the menfolk will be facilitated? Why are traditionally female roles like caring so undervalued?

And I guess our insane work culture where you’re expected to be available constantly

At the moment it isn't generally accepted or common that you can work part time in a well-paid role. This has to change for men as well as women. It is really hard to have any life outside work in some jobs - mostly quite unnecessarily for the actual role, because of workaholic bosses and demanding clients. Lots of families could benefit from both parents working in a 0.6 role, and manage financially if pro-rated from full time earnings. But what happens more often is one parent ends up working flat out and other stays at home or taking a badly paid role for a few hours a week.

It's also bad for the parent working flat out at work, as well as the one staying at home. It's bad for wider society as people get burned out and women disappear entirely from some jobs aged 35. It's bad for the wider participation of people in the workforce - loads more people could work if well paid part time was the norm. It's bad for the economy - we are really inefficient workers in this country. Because everyone working is knackered and fed up. Part time workers are more efficient, profitable and take less time off for illness.

We don't have children yet, and the limited house chores gets done 50:50 mostly because if DH can't be bothered to do something, then I'm not going to put myself out to do it either. So we don't have a perfectly tidy home and we get take out more than we should because nobody has bothered to go food shopping.

The thing is though, this shared laziness won't work once children arrive because then they'll be impacted by our lack of effort, rather than it only bothering to us. So what's the answer? I guess the only chance is to hope that when I step up to the plate, DH does too. You can see how quickly things become unequal once kids arrive.

I'm in this situation. I hadn't envisaged ending up like this. In our case, we had planned to have our children quite close together, as we were both 30 before we were in a position to start a family. At that point I was earning more than DH. The plan was that I'd give up work completely, have an intensive few years of having children, then go back part time and ultimately full time.

Turned out it wasn't that easy. I had a miscarriage, then DC1, then another miscarriage, then another, and another. I didn't want to go back to work, even part-time, whilst trying for DC2, because I had such difficult pregnancies. Meanwhile, as I was at home, full time, with one child, whenever I wasn't pregnant I just did everything. All the housework. DH did bedtimes and fun times - he's a great Dad - but there just didn't seem to be any reason for him to do any housework at all, when he was increasingly time-poor. DH's career started to really take off, and he started going abroad regularly. Then we had DC2, but she had some health issues. Not serious, but time consuming. So I wasn't in any hurry to go back; our priority was DC2. Then I had an accidental pregnancy, which also ended in miscarriage. By the time both DCs were at school, we had somehow ended up with DH having a great career, and international travel, which depended on continuing the way we were, with me facilitating. I'm part-time, and I'll never be equal with DH now. We can't jeopardise DH's certain career for any potential career I might be able to have.

Wondeful post Ravenheart!

To add my 2p worth.
Probably true that I husband facilitate, a bit. I work 4 days in a senior role, DH full time. We have a nanny and a cleaner, split domestic tasks between us.

But probably true to say I do more of the thinking and planning 'wife work' than him (he'd say he does essential stuff too, but he does long range stuff like renewing the mortgage, while I make sure the food is ordered and cooked - day to day keep the plates spinning).

I agree with the analysis that our society particularly facilitates men to climb to the top.

But my issue is, I want to climb to the top (or higher up) but I DON'T want to be any more facilitated.

or, I do in terms of house / life admin - I dream of a housekeeper come personal assistant.

But, NOT in terms of childcare. I don't want to spend any less time with them than I already do. (I don't want to spend more time, either, I like my job and am happy with my time balance).

What hacks me off is that our world is geared towards total commitment to your career. It is much harder to climb to the top if you are not prepared to sacrifice significant hours with your children.

Many women know this and hence choose not to do this: because time with their children is important to them.

And I think men are trapped by the patriarchy too in that they either do not know their children that well, and how wonderful it can be to care for them. Or do know this, but feel they must prioritise their job over it for financial / status reasons.

I honestly believe I could do as good a job, if not better, than our current CEO.

But the chances of me getting that high are low unless I am prepared to sacrifice spending the time I currently do with my children as they grown up. And THAT is a price I am not prepared to pay.

AARRRRGHHH

Does your H not want to spend as much time parenting then?

Mine does but as you point out employers expectations and incentives make it hard. Men need to challenge it though, my DH tries to do this.

My thoughts on this.

Many men get to be 'facilitated men' (love that phrase)
Some men don't, these are the men who actually step up and take on their fair share at home.
A vanishingly small number of women get to be facilitated.

This means that the only people who get to have the full support to progress their careers in any way that suits them is facilitated men. Women and non-facilitated men are fucked.

Women never get to 'have it all'. The only thing women get is the expectation on their shoulders that they will do it all: the 9-5 full-time job plus all the wifework.

The only people who actually get to 'have it all' are facilitated men. They get to have an unfettered career, shiny happy well-cared-for children, a clean home, cooked dinners, the freedom to fucking cycle commute if they fancy it while working mums need to get their training in before the family wakes up (personal bugbear), and then a huge pat on the back for being so mightily successful.

What really galls is that Facilitated Dave thinks that he has achieved this status all on his own, and that 'Part-Time Mary' or 'I need to dash home to collect the kids at 4:30 Mike' just aren't trying hard enough, so that's why Dave gets the promotion.

Never mind the Super-arse Facilitated Dave who has zero appreciation for how his wife has made all of this happen for him, treats her like shit, thinks the money is all 'his' and then fucks off with a younger model and leaves his wife with nothing.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3065849-to-find-it-sad-that-women-talk-about-their-DH-a-achievements-like-they-are-their-own

While we have fucking threads like this (OP was I think a woman) how the hell can the role of the facilitator ever be acknowledged? The bottom line is someone needs to do it, whether it's a 50/50 split or buying in the help or grandparents doing the childcare or DW facilitating DH or DH facilitating DW. And of course, while it's undervalued and the "silent sector", men, who are raised to believe they can do / be anything, who are clever, strong, competent, leaders (as opposed to girls who are pretty, kind, sensible or bossy), these men aren't going to do something so far beneath them and their expectations of adulthood.

I love the thread and agree with much that is being said.

Just one thought though. Isn’t there also a risk to the facilitated bloke if the marriage breaks down? The risk that the kids basically love their mum more and take her side when they separate and he effectively loses his family/children.

This really strikes a cord with me. I’ve been a sahm for two months and I’m facilitating everything whilst trying to do a start up. Funnily enough it’s very hard to do a start up around school hours, clubs and a baby and if I am a success I doubt any one will make a film about my rise to global domination! I agreee with pp that you can get stuck straight on the mummy track regardless of whether you wanted to or not and you chuff along in the slow lane watching your male partner zoom past you. It’s infuriating.

Dh works somewhere vaguely enlightened but his career can’t progress unless he buys into the pointless travelling across the country a couple of times a week that the Billy Big Bollocks partake in. As it is, he’s not been able to as I had a career and he hasn’t wanted to as he quite likes seeing his children but I don’t know if it will last and I can’t see it getting easier if he changes company to somewhere more regressive. I also massively resent I’m writing about his career when mine was snatched from me when I got pregnant.

Handbag that sounds hard. If your business venture has real scope for profit perhaps invest in some childcare? If not perhaps look to return to WoH?

“Facilitated Dave” Cameron is actually a prime example!

Dozer - he does like spending time with them, but he's conflicted about it - the second category.

he carves out time, but hides it from work rather than owning if possible.

he did 4 days a week for six months when I went back to work after DC1 and squaring that with his boss troubled him a lot (he worried about the message it sent - exactly as discussed here that he was 'not serious about his career'.Becasue being serious about your career = presentism at work and rarely / never prioritising home life above it).

But he enjoyed his time with DC and became a better more proactive Dad because of it. he's hands on at home, a great tidier, organiser etc. But when his work gets busy he gets sucked into it and can kind of 'check out' for a few days or a week or two in a way that I never would.

A big part of the problem is that men's identity and status in society is tied up with work.

Saying at work you're leaving early or arriving late to do more at home, or arranging your life (4 day week) to do more at home is new and still in some industries a big taboo (DH works in finance which really is the dark beating heart of the patriarch in my view).

He's not like that, but equally he is not confident to publicly challenge it. So he juggles and fudges.

And a further problem is many men are blind to this. They are trapped by the patriarchy too and they don't event know it.

I’m also in the position that right now I do have a career, albeit rather mummy tracked.

Dh is progressing really well and I have an awful feeling that within a few years we will be faced with a choice: he will get promoted to a point he needs to move to a global hub type place and then what? Trailing spouse?

'The only people who actually get to 'have it all' are facilitated men. They get to have an unfettered career, shiny happy well-cared-for children, a clean home, cooked dinners, the freedom to fucking cycle commute if they fancy it while working mums need to get their training in before the family wakes up (personal bugbear), and then a huge pat on the back for being so mightily successful.'

But do they? I think these men miss out on a big part of family life through not being present and committed to it.

I know my Dad did, and he's paid for it in terms of his relationships with us as adults.

I don't think facilitated men have it all. I think they are living half and life, and in the end, not the most important half.

Have you read the top five regrets of the dying?

First regret, from all the (wealthy, previously successful) men a (private) end-of-life care nurse supported through death was 'I wish I'd spent more time with my family, rather than at work'.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the-dying

but by then, it's too late.

I want a well paid, successful job. But I want ot spend time with my young children NOW. These years are never coming back. ANd no amount of work prestige or money can replace them.

Don’t quit your job to be a “trailling spouse” anatidae! If your H does THAT well there will be good opportunities for him in the UK. It us not U not to want to move abroad to the detriment of your own life/career.

Ah yes goodlucktime, finance is renowned for that working culture.

Strange that it also has so few senior women / mothers.....oh, wait.....

I'm on the wrong side of this. Mid (ok late) forties, was a facilitator, now divorced and replaced with a woman in her mid twenties. And believe me I never thought it would happen to me and neither did my friends or family.

But as a lawyer (then, not now - of course) I made sure that I was as secure as I could be, dealt with the finances, assets in joint names etc.

What people don't know is that it is looking likely that wife maintenance will be abolished by new legislation. The expectation will be that women must work after divorce and men are no longer required to maintain them even in cases of high income disparity (my ex earns £300k).

That means we will be even more screwed than we are now - at least I knew that giving up my job would mean that he has to maintain me, even if I didn't think it would ever happen.

DH has a great relationship with our kids, partially because I facilitated it; clearing up after dinner etc so that he could do the bedtime story; keeping him housework free so that he can spent Saturday morning in the park / swimming with them, all the Christmas shopping / wrapping etc so we can have our lovely family Christmas (though he does buy them well-chosen gifts when he's abroad on work, it's just Christmas shopping that is left to me). I organise them keeping in touch when he's away.

They know he loves them not just because he does, and shows it, but also because I tell them that he does "Daddy's very proud of (whatever) and he said we should have cake! Hurrah for Daddy!" It isn't Daddy that bakes the cake, though, is it?

Not in the uk, alas, dozer

I’d happily give up work. IF I had my own independent income. But unless I win the lottery that ain’t happening.

Absolutely the people now doing best at work are childless people and the fathers of children raised by single mums.

They’re the people who are facilitated by child rearing being treated as a private matter not a key societal function.

And doubtless, Windygallow's original post is partly why 92% - 92%!! - of men occupy the seats of the UK's biggest boardrooms. Still. Power resides in these places. And the power is male.

It is not that women lack ambition or talent. I have seen fiercely competitive, ambitious, talented, astute women all my life - from my school and uni days to my professional life in several organisations. Look at GSCE, A level results and results at uni, law school and medical school. Women ace it again and again.

It may be the glass ceiling and discrimination as to why women don't get to the top. But it may also be because women opt out because they are tired. Tired of doing it all....

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/08/senior-women-britains-boardrooms-unchanged-10-years

I can add a 'funny' story to this thread.

My XH was featured in a newspaper for being an expert at work/life balance for managing to work in a high pressure career while having special needs children.

No mention was made of the fact that his wife (me) gave up work to do all the therapy, school runs, medical appointments while he had total freedom to work.