Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

Vashna,

You make some interesting points there.

I've got a decently paid job in corporate sales within the security industry. However, I hate it and actually envy my sister who is a SAHM with a wealthy husband. Prior to this, she had a senior position working for a defence contractor and was very successful in an extremely hard nosed male-dominated environment. After her 2nd she has seemingly decided not to return to work as originally planned and has told me several times that motherhood is nowhere near as stressful as her previous job which had her flying all over the world to give presentations at short notice.

I also envy some of my friends who have chosen to pursue more vocational jobs. I have a friend who earns peanuts as a nail technician and whilst I wouldn't swap with her I really envy the fact that she is totally oblivious to all the corporate stress and politics I have to deal with. I suppose she's the equivalent of a guy who chose to be a manual labourer or similar, except she benefits from having a fairly ambitious partner so she will likely end up living outside of the means provided by her salary when she gets married, unlike the manual labourer.

Never has a thread been so pertinent to my life. I still haven't read it all yet though.
I'm up to LeCroissant 's comments and I totally agree. The ideal is for both partners to be able to work AND have enough time to see their children. Very difficult to achieve in reality though.

Sophocles,

I'll admit I didn't read all 32 pages.

I'm just saying that I think many women are happy to kiss the corporate world behind and many don't care about the 'structures in place'. I'd wager that most women feel more allegiance to their husbands than the sisterhood and choose the option that works for them as a partnership rather than trying to make some political statement. If this wasn't the case I'm sure there'd be more than 7% of women identifying as feminists.

Didn't mean that to sounds as snarky as it looks! Just saying that I observe many women who don't care about these issues. Hell, there are probably more women that watch the Kardashians than there are feminists!

But there must be more women who are annoyed they can’t work and / or find their partners frustrating as they won’t do their fair share than those who identify as feminists

It has negative connotations to some

Yes, I'd agree that men don't do as much housework, but most of the men I know work long hours in hard in jobs they don't enjoy solely to provide for their family. I also know women who don't work and have cleaners.

I agree that many women don't think much about these issues.

Maybe it's the circles I move in, but I don't know any women who have given up work entirely and embraced that. In fact, I know a lot of women who are affected by this phenomenon and who are made immensely unhappy by it, though they don't identify feminism as having the answers for them (much as I think it might actually help them put the blame where it belongs, instead of on themselves). They muddle along as best they can, thinking they're inadequate. We all do. I'd like to think that could change.

I suppose the question is how much housework should the husband do? For example, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was supporting a husband who didn't work, had no young children, but expected me to do housework when I got home at 9pm after being stuck late in the office as often seems to happen. And this is when I'm not away on business and hence unable to do any housework.

God, I'm sounding a bit bitter here!

I guess it's because although I value my independence it certainly seems like my happily married SAHM friends (and sister) have it much better than me. When I look at them I don't see oppression but privilege. They are married to loving men who would do anything for them and they benefit from the nice things in life without working for them like I do. Admittedly, they have housework and children to take care of but it still looks a better existence than my life of corporate strategy, internal politics, and late nights working on bids etc with little benefit apart from knowing I've paid the bills with my own money (would that even be a benefit in a happy partnership?).

Not RTFT but I find it utterly depressing that I am a facilitator.

Even as my hours have increased and we are on similar pay the default role of chief organiser is mine.

It's a real bug bear that I can't fully focus on my professional role, have to leave work to come back home for kids and can never do any overtime.

It's just expected simply as he gets to work full time. I'd swap in a heartbeat if I could go to work, focus, leave when I want and come home to everything sorted.

Arghhhhh!!!!!!!

This is a fascinating thread. I have read all of it. My extended family is full of these facilitated men. What it's made me think of (and I hadn't thought about it in years), is the Marxism I was taught at university. Everything that we think is important/significant grows off the superstructure and at the heart is the economic and therefore power relationships between women and men.

DH and I both managed 0.8 of fte for several years when our DD was born but I did note at the time I had to take a 20% pay cut to get this (and still had to do the full job) while he took the day 'under the radar' so continued to receive his full salary while only doing about 80% of the work. We work in the same sector (broadly). I was annoyed about this but also conflicted, as it benefitted me. We had/have a more equitable split of tasks than some friends, but it's mainly based on him doing what he's prepared to and me doing everything else. I don't really get a choice of which tasks I take on, as there are many he simply won't do and some are important (housework, finances).

However, the most equitable relationship I can think of (in terms of they very much appreciate what the other does) is that of my PIL and they have extremely traditional gender roles. I don't want us to be like them, but I do notice that it works for them.

Also, I have to really keep on DH's case otherwise he backslides and lets me do even more stuff. I basically have to make it easier for him to do the task than not do it (like, strip the bed so that he's got to put new sheets on so he can get into it).

For example, at the moment he is ill (to be fair, he is feeling very poorly), however, even when I've felt awful I have generally managed to put a wash on and take my plate to the dishwasher if I've been at home all day. If we didn't have DD I wouldn't mind but I am doing all 'his' drop offs and pick ups and was late to work today because of this!

And he has NOT said thank you for doing my stuff this week and last.

@windygallows, anatidae, sophoclesthefox, lecroissant, grumpysquirrel and many other posters this really has been a galvanising thread. My brain is fizzing.. Its created a useful prism though which to understand a lot of tiny personal decisions/ trade-offs/ over the years.. I think women often make these internal adjustments primarily for their children and their husbands become the beneficiaries over time.. I also genuinely underestimated what was entailed in running a family and household (more or less single-handedly) rather than just living in a flat with a boyfriend hanging out, having a nice time, when actually it did genuinely feel 50/50.

I really do not believe it is a lack of ambition or confidence that holds women back in the workplace after children. I witnessed female colleagues make better decisions, be more efficient, more effective managers and build strong rapport with colleagues/ clients after children, even after a career break. Ironic, huh? The very qualities that should mean women are thriving in the workplace.
More decent part time jobs/ jobshares right across the board would, I think, help. I have several friends ( with older kids) in their late 40s/ early 50s ramp up their careers and return to full time decent positions, but who have kept their hand in over their years...

Ah! I've remembered the bit of theory that I was reminded of: "False consciousness (especially in Marxist theory): a way of thinking that prevents a person from perceiving the true nature of their social or economic situation."

Not saying I necessarily agree that someone living off someone else's money quite happily and productively is misguided. It is rational to do that if you can and want to.

A point that's not mentioned much here is that it's surely better for kids to spend time with both parents, as opposed to one full time SAHP and the other barely there/long hours working WOHP. The model of one parent working long hours outside the home while the other parent works long hours to keep the home running, is just so fundamentally unbalanced. To those SAHPs on this thread who are very happy with their setup as facilitators for their partner's careers, do you ever think that it's just not very balanced and that the children are being raised with a very skewed view of the world (one parent works, one stays at home)? This to me, regardless of how financiallly comfortable the arrangement is, is a big downside.
In my situation we made a conscious decision to both work part time, at a sizeable cost (not just the 20% pay cut each but also the inevitable long term impact on progression/promotion and earnings). However I wouldn't swap our set up for that of my many friends where the female is a housewife and the male is the breadwinner. Their net income likely beats ours every time (because neither of us is facilitated so we can't offer our respective employers the extra mile) but the sheer inequality would really wind me up.
Does this make me an angry feminist? Surely wanting equality is part of a progressive society.

Although I am probably a classic case of a "facilitator", I do identify as a feminist. I'm not sure a world where we can make the "perfect" choices will ever exist. Life is about compromises.

There is a deep contradiction in how I perceive my life because although, I can see how my situation has been influenced by DH, my background, society and so on. I'm still not entirely sure that I would have wanted to opt for the alternative had the support and structures been there.

Similarly, I'm not sure DH had any more real choice than I did. He is British, but in his particular Middle Eastern culture it's considered shameful to "force" your wife out to work. He doesn't wholly subscribe to this obviously, but I don't think he would have seen being a SAHD as a viable option for him, put it that way. So where is the choice in that?

I've been following this thread with real interest, thank you for starting it, WindyGallows.

Although I have worked since I graduated, I find myself to be facilitator-in-chief for our family. Sometimes I wonder how on earth I came to be such a stereotype!

Dh and I were pretty evenly matched until we had dc, in terms of our work in and out of the home. I took maternity leave of 1 year for each of our dc, and was actually promoted into senior management (had to be full time) on my return after dc3. After 2 years of trying to juggle everything, I quit my job but retrained immediately into teaching - I know people say it's not family-friendly, but I do get the holidays with my children, which I truly treasure.

Thing is, I'm knackered. Dh's earning potential has gone through the roof whereas I have effectively taken a 50% pay cut to teach. We are lucky enough to afford a part-time nanny who collects when I can't, and keeps on top of the ironing and housework.

Dh does an equal share of laundry, washing up and homework with the dc, takes care of the garden etc. The planning is a real millstone around my neck. Who is going to be where, when, what time people need picking up (and whether it is me or nanny picking up), what's for dinner that day. I come home from work and sort out the children until bedtime.

I usually start work again sometime after 9pm and work anywhere until midnight - 2am, depending on marking load, reports etc. Guiltily, I quite like when dh works away, as it means I can get the kids to bed and start work again earlier in the evening. And work till I need to without feeling guilty about not spending time with him.

I feel as if I sort of imploded trying to manage everything and dh and I had real arguments about housework and childcare, which did improve the situation but it is not 50/50. Every career choice I have made in the past few years has been with the family foremost in my mind.

We don't need the money at all, and I toy with the idea of taking a break from work (maybe setting up a tutoring business), so that I'm not run ragged, but the thought sits very uncomfortably with me, as the idea of not having independent financial means terrifies me. All of this is taking its toll on my health though.

Just a ramble, really. The thread is a really interesting read.

I am well educated (phd) and my work actually includes gender equality projects but it has taken me until my forties to recognise that these issues have actually affected me, personally, in my (compromised) career and my (failing) marriage.

A lot of the discussion here has been about higher earning men in corporate/professional careers but the issues are as acute in lower income brackets. How do you even begin to tackle the mindset that a man's job is sacred, no matter how little he earns, what hours he has to work, and what it costs his wife in stress, exhaustion, isolated childcare - in addition to the often full time she works because his own income can't keep the family?

I can't help thinking that still far too much of a woman's daily experience of adult life is based upon the decision she took (often at a young age) about what man to marry and have kids with. At least if entry and progression in the workplace were more equal, that particular decision might become less of a crunch point for a woman's entire life.

Phineyj have you told him how much his behaviour pisses you off? Personally I wouldn't put up with being used. Especially with regard to domestic stuff because let's face it, it sucks and no one really wants to do it. One of the benefits of working and earning is knowing that if our relationship wasn't working I could very easily support myself and the children. I literally put up with zero shit, and I know I'd feel less independent if I didn't earn. This is just the way I am wired I think - in part due to my Mums influence. She never encouraged any of her daughters to get a boyfriend/get married/have kids, instead she encouraged us to get an education/career and financial independence. She's been married to my Dad over 50 years mind you.

Anyway I'm just mulling over the realisation that I've never had a boss who wasn't a white male with a SAH wife. How the hell can a working parent compete with that??? God I hope it all changes for our children.

phiney - love the reference to false consciousness. So true. A phrase I haven't heard since University, but now think of often, is hegemony. "the social, cultural, ideological, or economic influence exerted by a dominant group" It's all around!

I can't help thinking that still far too much of a woman's daily experience of adult life is based upon the decision she took (often at a young age) about what man to marry and have kids with. At least if entry and progression in the workplace were more equal, that particular decision might become less of a crunch point for a woman's entire life.
Muggins that is so true. You've articulated something i've had a hard time explaining. That we say to girls that they can be anything they want and push them to achieve academically but the principle thing that will shape their life and probably determine so much of their daily experience whether their life is comfortable or not financially, is if they marry/who they have kids with. It seems a somewhat false promise that we tell our daughters they can be anything they want but so, so much depends on their marital status and who they might end up with. I hope that makes sense.

Oh yes, multiple times. We have had a lot of arguments about it and things have improved, but I still feel it takes way too much energy to keep things in any way equitable. Part of the problem is we've got enough cash to outsource. So instead of arguing about the cleaning, we have a cleaner, but it's still my job to book her (obviously, her), ensure she's paid, has the stuff she needs etc. If I take my eye off the ball things backslide and sometimes I just haven't got the energy. I must say though that he is much less selfish when it comes to DD (although still not to the point where he'll do housework voluntarily).

It's not even feeling like I have to project manage but the underlying feeling that he keeps some sort of mental ledger of the stuff he's done. It's like he knows what the right thing to do is, but at some level he's doing it because it's expected and not because he really feels any responsibility for doing it.

We should be telling our sons to expect to do a LOT of domestic work and childcare. Instead of putting it all on our daughters to "find" the right guy... as is often the case, it's too easy to ask women and girls to modify their behaviour but it is really only when boys/men modify their life expectations that real change will happen.

Phineyj it's a tough situation ....
has your DH ever seen what happens when you don't pick up the pieces either? ie chaotic house and no food in the fridge etc? Like if you went on strike ;-)
It must be great to be a guy eh? Have to admit I am the lazier one in our house and my DH does the bulk of cooking, shopping, laundry etc and let's be clear it is laziness, men are not genetically incapable of washing clothes and cleaning surfaces. They just get away with not doing it. Because it's not fun.

"I also genuinely underestimated what was entailed in running a family and household (more or less single-handedly) rather than just living in a flat with a boyfriend hanging out, having a nice time, when actually it did genuinely feel 50/50"

Oh yes. DC1 was a huge shock in so many ways, including this! I remember feeling rough and in pain from birth, DC1 colicky, DH returning to work after 2 weeks and thinking wtf is this!