Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

Oh, melody- can't you even try to get it?

And being artsy about a typo is really ridiculous.

Melody, you are clearly happy with staying at home. But a lot of women are reluctant SAHMs, it’s just that they are not happy with the standard of childcare available, have little or no support from partner/family, find it impossible/difficult not just stay in work, but progress with all those additional family responsibilities which they don’t really have the choice to ignore, as some pp have helpfully suggested. Their children will suffer if they ignore the housework and spend as little time with them as their OH does.

It is so different before children. I didn’t cook if I didn’t want to, we just dined at the restaurant a few times a week. Try eating out with a baby and toddler, it is more stress than it’s worth.

I could ignore the laundry for a few weeks, husband can put his own in if he needs clean clothes. Sadly, a 6-month old or a pre-schooler can’t do their own laundry etc. etc.

Ignoring is just not an option.

LeCroissant and Antidae, it will only work when men actually WANT to do drudge work and exhausting but dull caring labour. Somehow I do not see them giving up their good life and privilege to go down in the world. It’s like me saying I really enjoy wiping arses and scrubbing toilets all day instead of being a respected and well-paid professional. No I don’t. I do it because I have to, because I was as good as pushed into it.

I don't see why men should WANT to do something you admit you don't want to do yourself. Like you, I had no choice. I have to do it, because I was as good as pushed into it. My wife wasn't prepared to do it, so I had to.

Melody are you completely unable to understand that your own personal experience is not the issue? Do you do this with every conversation?

"Transport really needs investment in this country"
"Well my train ride is fine so stop warbling on about transport needing investment"

I'm beginning to feel sorry for your husband.

I don't understand why slaving away every day at some soul destroying office job is seen as a privilege tbh. Most men endure their jobs to provide for their family not out of sheer enjoyment of paperwork.

Most men I know did their job before they had kids. And will do it once their kids are independent .

Most single and child free men work too.

So they are not doing it it just for their kids.

The privilege is being a parent whilst retaining and often increasing earning power in the labour market, often facilitated by the other parent who takes almost all the personal financial risk.

Privileged no one is saying that 'slaving' in an office is ideal or what everyone wants, but some women do want a career and those women should be given equal opportunities to have one.

And what's wrong with making an income to pay for your family and children? The women on MN who say things like 'money isn't everything' etc usually have money. Money IS everything if it's the difference between clothing, feeding and housing your children.

Because work = money
Money = security.
Lack of money = vulnerability.

Kristina,

Of course most men do their jobs first. Us women don't seem to like 'unsuccessful' guys on the whole - that's a pressure that mainly falls on the man in our society - so they can't afford to wait until their partner is pregnant.

I can certainly see how leaving the work world puts women in a position of vulnerability but it's still something that most women want to do it seems. No matter what my view is (or that of any given feminist) I'm always stopped in my tracks by the realisation that the majority of women are more or less happy with the traditional model. Do we as the minority get to make the rules?

How do you know that most women are happy ?

And what “ rules “ do you mean ?

Melody probably hasn’t had much adult company today for years which explains the ridiculous goady attention seeking. Don’t victim blame, guys!

Sorry I’ve not been following the thread today, I’ve been at work making shit loads of money and letting DH change jobs so he’s happier. Night all! Love ya’s! 😘 🍷 #fuckthepatriarchy🖕🏼🖕🏼🖕🏼

I'm always stopped in my tracks by the fact that 1/3 of adult women in the UK are not in the labour force - so aren't employed at all! That figure doesn't include women who want to work but are unemployed. Sorry - a tangent!

Privileged are you sure the majority of women are happy with this set up of having to be the facilitator?

Night grumpy - thanks for all the great posts!

that does seem a high proportion. that include pensioners and women with ill health? What’s the equivalent stat for men?

Well, only 7% of women here in the UK identify as feminists. One look on a dating website will tell you that a LOT of women want a 'successful' guy or one that 'knows what he wants in life' etc...basically any anecdote for 'well off'.

Then there is the fact that men who become stay at home parents or earn less than their spouses are significantly more likely to be divorced by their wives according to statistics.

I'm not objectively disagreeing with the reasoning behind this thread but I think that many women do genuinely dream of meeting a successful and charming 'prince' who will facilitate them starting a family. This statement seems to make a certain type of feminist angry but I'm not convinced it's any less true and that said feminists represent the majority of women I've met in real life.

The high cost and nature of childcare in the uk puts a lot of women off returning to work (including me). Very few people will go back to work if it's going to cost the family as a whole money.

I think that many women do genuinely dream of meeting a successful and charming 'prince' who will facilitate them starting a family

Gosh , that sounds like you think that men facilitate women having a baby ? I’m sure you didnt mean to say that did you?

And you seem to be equating “ women who don’t identify as feminist “ and “ omen who are completely happy with their lack of choices”.

I’m not sure if dating websites are giving you the best information about women and children’s lives in the UK.

Just wanted to say thanks for a very interesting thread.

Melody, if you're this obtuse to your husband, I'm amazed he comes home at all.

I didn't use the dating website example for information on women's lives, I used it as an example of what they look for in a man - 'success' features a lot.

I do think men facilitate in their own way. There are plenty of housewives who are more than happy to leave the work to their husband. I know a fair few.

I think there are plenty of women whose main priority is quality of life rather than personal achievement. Not everybody wants to be an office slave to 'prove a point' and I think it is these women that many feminists despise.

Is it possible that if you have a "vocation" rather than a job that's purely for the salary you are more likely to go back to work after kids - e.g. if you feel you have a distinct role or one that makes a difference in society.

Otherwise, if your job is primarily about the money or progressing through corporate structures, you may feel that you make more difference and have more value at home with your kids.

Women are Less likely to return to work if - a) the additional salary would be swallowed by childcare costs, or b) the money you earn would make little difference to the family finances anyway.

The corporate world does not appeal to everyone and maybe less so to women? I don't think this is lack of appeal is only because of perceived glass ceilings, etc. Maybe it all seems a bit vapid?

dozer the ONS stats on women in the labour market are from 2013. I think stats were produced more recently in 2016 but I can't find them:
www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/womeninthelabourmarket/2013-09-25

While only 2/3 of women WOHM it doesn't state how many are FT or PT.

By age 55 more than 50% of women aren't working. Sigh for senior poverty.

The real causes of the gender pay gap (note post 2009 recession effect on the statistics.. we are going backwards!)

I don't think it's fair to characterise feminists as "despising" women taking on the role of facilitator, parsnip. Did you miss all the posters on the thread who say they've been SAHM? And that we're all fed fed FED up of doing this invisible role regardless of whether we work or not? It's a bit frustrating to have to go over again for the umpteenth time on this thread that no-one despises the facilitators that we're talking about - we despise the system that functions to ensure that this facilitating role almost always falls on women. It's the structures at fault, not the people within them. And it's not even predominantly about SAH/WOH.

How, after 800+ posts, is that not clear?