Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

Yes well I hold my hands up that I would be "Exhibit A" of what you describe and our marriage could be a case study of that very phenomena.

I'm just not sure if I would have been actually happier in a more 50/50 set up. I genuinely don't know.

Maybe you wouldn't have been Vashna. But the point is you didn't actually have the choice of a 50/50 setup because you knew your husband wouldn't engage with that. So, to have children you had to accept being their sole carer at least for the first part of their lives.

What matters is not the choice itself but what choices are actually available. Men generally do have a choice to have children and then just carry on with their lives as if nothing has changed, while many women don't. And that's the problem.

Basically we live in a world where it's acceptable for a man to be incapable of keeping his own children safe. The same world in which it's acceptable for a man to simply walk away from his children, never to see them again, while the single mother left behind is the one judged and criticised. A world where (mostly) men owe more than £3.8 billion in child maintenance and the government does little or nothing to rectify that (while at the same time reducing benefits for single parents, mostly mothers).

And Vashna, it’s very important that we say that it’s not YOU that’s being blamed here. Your husband is the one whose head needs a wobble :)

You I think, like everyone, are doing the best with what you have. There’s no shame or blame in that at all.

Precisely Anatidae.

What DH has done though, to be fair, is made sure we never had to worry about money. That is parenting too because it's equally necessary.

It is necessary, but it is absolutely the easier and more pleasant option. I haven’t always been a SAHM, I have actually worked for quite a few years before I ended up where I am, and I know for a fact being at work, even in a demanding job, is a million times easier than being responsible for a baby all day and everything else pretty much. I ran to work after my first maternity leave! But as others pointed out, I simply couldn’t sacrifice my children’s well-being in order to pursue my own. A great choice I had and have still!

IMO it's not sensible for one partner to have no other outlet except looking after the baby while the other partner works all hours and hardly sees the baby. Both partners lose out - one by feeling stuck at home with very little variety and other by missing out on seeing their child grow up. It's a real shame for both women and men that things have ended up this way.

I found that when I was a SAHM I wasn't a very good parent because I saw the children as a chore - I spent so much time with them that I didn't get any sort of distance and they totally stressed me out. DH meanwhile knew so little about them that he wasn't a good parent either - he'd play with them but he didn't take care of their needs very well. Now that we're both working and both taking care of the children we're far far better parents and we're all doing much better. We all get a break, we're all involved and we're a much better team because we're both working together on the same things (rather than splitting the work and each shouldering a separate burden alone)

Yeah - the best solution I think is to at least have the option and framework so that both partners can drop hours and both work and both look after the child. That’s how it works here in Sweden - you have the right to go down to as low as 75% until the child is in school.

Of course, multinational companies don’t always respect this - but technically the option is there

Why is there no improvement on the pay gap in Sweden, and why is the pension gap so big?

Pay gap between male and female parents is 21% in Sweden- only 9% in the UK.

LeCroissant and Antidae, it will only work when men actually WANT to do drudge work and exhausting but dull caring labour. Somehow I do not see them giving up their good life and privilege to go down in the world. It’s like me saying I really enjoy wiping arses and scrubbing toilets all day instead of being a respected and well-paid professional. No I don’t. I do it because I have to, because I was as good as pushed into it.

It takes more than a few wives to challenge the status quo that favours and facilitates men. Men absolutely need to have their hand forced with taking on more childcare and associated domestics, along the lines of Scandinavian ‘use it or lose it’ approach, only a lot stronger.

Great question!

The answer is that sweden isn’t perfect still And that anything that affects pay and pension gaps (which of course are linked) takes time to filter through.

Women earn I think a third less still in pensionable years :( that’s shit, and it’s because of a number of factors like women earning less, leaving the workforce earlier and the way Swedish pensions are structured, which I have to admit I’m still not that clear on, it’s a complex system.

There is actually a task force set up to try to close the gap - link is in Swedish sorry but google translate is your friend here
www.regeringen.se/pressmeddelanden/2017/01/handlingsplan-for-jamstallda-pensioner/

Sweden isn’t utopia - It’s really cast like that in the uk media and it’s not. Certain things it’s got really right, others not so much (which I shan’t bore on about because it’ll get me down.) it’s not perfect, it’s very rigid and conformist in many ways but they are trying to be more equal.

Women are still more likely to go part time than men which affects their pensions disproportionately due to how it works here. You do now get pension contributions when in mat leave which is good.

Sweden still isn’t perfect - I think what’s heartening is that it’s recognised as an issue that needs to be fixed.

Pay gap between male and female parents is 21% in Sweden- only 9% in the UK.

It just shows how entrenched this stuff is even in the ‘progressive’ cultures. If I remember correctly, Sweden has higher labour market participation rates for women though. But still, the majority of part-timers are female.

That’s a slightly misleading statistic speakout

In the uk, there are many sahms. Here, there are virtually none - it’s really unusual to not work. It’s normally trailing spouses/expat posting type couples who have a non working spouse. So you’re comparing two different populations - the true comparison would be nearer to ‘all women who work or not who are mums’ in the uk.

Women are still taking more parental leave and taking the time drop option more than men. Again, it’s far from perfect here- the uk media really pushes sweden as this mythical utopia and it’s not. What’s different I think here is there is a big push to get more equality and that these questions are asked and being addressed in government.

Yeah pretty much justwandering

Almost no stay at home mums, but more part timers. We need to work on getting to a more level playing field where men feel able to take the time drop more.

I have to say that in our group of friends, there are maybe the bulk where both parents work 85%. I do know sahms- every single one is an expat and most want to work but are frustrated by the Swedish labour market.

It’s not perfect but it’s a step in the right direction.

If I think of the prep school my younger DC attend (Central London), there will be the occasional dad at pick up at 3.30. It's like spot the dad amidst hundreds of mums. I would say at least 70% of women I know through that school are SAHMs. The rest work part-time in school hours and a few full time, but that's the exception here.

But most Swedish kids go to nursery at a young age so parents can work.
Many parents in the UK prefer to look after children at home in the early years.

Yup that’s how it works here - kids go to dagis from one year /18m onwards. It’s seen as best for them - it’s a real cultural thing. Dagis is generally of very high quality, teachers are highly qualified etc.

That’s the system here - two taxpayers, both working, kids being indoctrinated with Jantes law taught to share and be good little citizens from young. If there’s a criticism of that it’s that it doesn’t really give the option of being a sahp. Again, it’s not perfect. But it’s not bad. The state plays a much bigger role here than the uk - that’s something even as a Brit I sometimes struggle with, but it’s how it is here. Home schooling is illegal - kids are seen as having a right to schooling with the peers

Ds’s dagis is fab - he loves it. And we pay at the highest rate - 120 quid for a month (including all food etc.)

Anatidae many of us don't want to send our 1 year olds to day care.

That was the very reason I became a SAHM.

I did want to work after a while but I admit I had a strong desire to be at home with my dc when they were very little

Then I didn’t want it to be impossible to go back

Also wanted to say to Vashna that people aren’t having a go at you

When probed, you admitted that you were not happy with the quality of childcare available (neither was I) and your DH was less than willing to pick up the slack, but preferred to concentrate on work instead. Well, going SAH wasn’t really a choice for you then, was it? The alternative was to run yourself into the ground doing a professional job and being responsible for everything at home, and being solely responsible for your children. It was not a free choice you originally advocated it to be. This is the problem the posters have with it, I think. The structural imbalance of power being framed as individual free choices. It is anything but, I am afraid.

Kudos to you though for putting such excellent provisions in place to mitigate against the risks and negative effects!

I have seen the light.

After 20 years of marriage, three children (all teenagers), I am going to tell DH where he can go if he thinks I'm gonna perpetuate (not perpetrate ) the facilitating any more. He won't know what's hit him, the cunt! Bastard leaves home at 5:20am every morning and doesn't get back until at least 6:30pm - sometimes later - every day. Who the fuck does he think he is oppressing me like that?

Thankyou - no if course I don't take any of this as people having a go at me . I enjoy reading other perspectives.

To me the Swedish system sounds more on the institutional side than I'd be comfortable with, but maybe if I was Swedish I wouldn't worry about putting my DC in daycare at 1 yo because that's the norm. Who knows?

I did say when I first came on this thread that my DH is basically a very extreme workaholic when all is said and done, so that has been my "normal" and I do recognise it's impacted my choices.

Melody it doesn’t matter what you as an individual family do (for the millionth time.) no one is having a pop at you for being a sahm.