Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

There’s nothing wrong with facilitating your partner to succeed- I don’t think anyone disagrees with that. What’s frustrating and unfair is:

1. The total obliviousness of men to the support they receive

1. The dishonesty of men who do realise but don’t acknowledge it, and the dishonesty of women who have convinced themselves that they are happy doing it

1. That most people receiving this facilitation are men, and that lots of women who need it, don’t, and finally

1. That lots of women are forced into facilitating against their wishes

There. Hope that helps, *Melody’

I think it’s very hard to get father to realise who much work is involved in parenting because so much is invisible ornate you don’t notice until it’s not done.

You see it all the time on divorce threads. Men who supposedly have 50:50 with their kids but never

Arrange and keep any school, medical, dental or social appointments for their children
Never take them to parties or buy gifts
Never deal with the endless letters and request that come from school
Never bake cakes for school sales , make costumes or models
Never help out when parent helpers are required
Never buy, clean mend or organise their children’s clothes or toys
Never do homework or Liase with school
Never organise or pay for clubs, sports or any extra curricular activities
Never have the kids unless it suits them
Never have the kids for the 13 weeks a year school holidays

Because they thought their ex would continue to do 100% of all that after the split. They just planned to be Disney dads.

So I have no idea how to get cohabiting fathers to begin to take a share of all that.

That’s one of the key issues IMO, actually seeing there is a problem in the first place. Then feeling a responsibility to change the situation to an equal footing. Like most big ideas that inconvenience those holding the power, the uncomfortable first steps usually need discussion, compromise and if that doesn’t change things, then change has to be imposed rather than pleaded for.
Those men I know that were facilitated, usually by mothers, changed when they were in a relationship with someone they loved and respected who articulated the problem and then told them what needed changing. Or they continued their lifestyle oblivious and unaware, whilst their partners took over the facilitating role their mothers had previously filled.
It takes altruism, and a true sense of equality to change from a position that benefits you massively to one that benefits others as well, and most people don’t have that awareness.

Agree november. It does take true altruism to want equality to be achieved, because it means giving up some privilege

For what it’s worth I think equality can still be achieved between a sahp and a wohp - it just requires some open-eyed and honest conversations about how to deal with tasks, power imbalances, money, etc. I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that most sahp are women.

This is very true.

However, what it is is a gendered representation of life: the most powerful people are supported in that position by all those under them. This is mainly an economic issue: the wealthiest begin by being enabled from the very outset at schoolwork and then their careers. This is at the very core of inequality.

There are a few other points to make, however. Do we really want our most responsible people to be taking an equal part in the minutiae of life? I, personally, am glad that Theresa May is probably not needing to go to Waitrose, clean her loos and iron her blouses. That someone else, less able to be PM (ok, moot point) completes those tasks seems sensible and practical.

Equally, we all outsource jobs: we don't make our own clothes, grow our own vegetables or build our own houses. We get other people to do it for us. The richer we get, the more we outsource. But, it is dependant on money isn't it? I wonder if there are many of us sitting here in judgement that would win the lottery tomorrow and not go straight out and find ways to minimise our chores? Those of us that have cleaners, and people that assist with childcare, we're probably paying other - less financially-able - women to do it, aren't we? And beyond that, we have plumbers, refuse collectors, bus drivers etc etc... We're all facilitated - and every second we sit on our backsides doing nothing, is because we've paid some other bugger to do something we don't have to. (Also, let's face it - there are plenty of women that are living lives of leisure, facilitated by a partner's or parent's income. They aren't all chained to the sink exactly are they?)

So, whilst true, the OP is just one gendered perspective within how shit works. If we achieved gender-parity in management positions, it's highly unlikely that, given the chance, the female managers would be any less facilitated than those same men we're now being so disparaging about.

TBF my DH did not change his working practices out of altruism. Nor out of any sense of fair play to women as a class.
He did it for me and himself, initially.

However, the changes have had a really positive knock on affect.

CautionTape did he do that independently, on his own initiative? Or did you have to point out some things to him?

how can facilitated men (1) realise / acknowledge what’s happening (2) be forced to take responsibility/ share opportunities eg like in the law firm example ?

grumpy to your question, I think calling it out in the first instance is vital. I once said this to a colleague, and in an absolutely jokey way, that of course he was going to succeed at work because he has a wife who supports him and his face went all weird and screwy. Most men don't really see it. The more it's talked about, the more it's pointed out, then perhaps slowly men will see it. It is however hard to raise it without sounding/feeling provocative and 'sour grapes-y', as you've very well seen on this thread.

Yes, think we need real structural change to make life/work balance better for all. I don’t think getting more women to work the insane hours many men work, not see kids, exploit other people as their career develops etc.. is the solution. It might be in the short term, but in the longer term, we need to rethink the way we work. Lots of innovative companies are doing this and as it becomes clearer that this is better for the bottom line, things will change.

As for lazy arse husbands, I know it’s not easy but we do need to take a stand when we can. I told mine I would leave if he didn’t do a proper 50%. He didn’t so I did leave for a bit, for my sake and for the sake of the DC who were getting a terrible example. He then got it and life has been much much better since then.

november it came about because I was offered a brilliant opportunity and I could only do it if DH committed to taking on more familial responsibilities.

Before that i didn't exactly facilitate him as I'd always worked, but because my job was flexible and home based, he spent far too much time in the office.

So when the opportunity came to me he volunteered to change his working practices. I was still reluctant (imposter syndrome) but he insisted we try as a family.

It has worked for us all very well. But TBF there are factors which helped.

My DC were older and quite capable (I've never been one of those women who do everything for them and I've always worked).

My DH was senior so able to simply decide to change without explanation to anyone. Provided he brings in the dough no one gives a shit how and where he works.

I was very happy to hand over to DH. I didn't expect him to do things like me or in a certain way. If it gets done it's cool by me.

We earn a lot of money so hire in help with chores we don't like.

If more women stopped facilitating men, it would mean men have to step up & request flexible working etc. That’s how you challenge the patriarchy.

So it's us facilitators to blame then really.

If we made choices other than the ones we really want to then that would be for the best.

Yeah that sounds really feminist.

I don't think melody is derailing this thread at all.
She makes some very important points

I facilitate my husband and he me. We are equal and earn the same amount of money. I tend to be the one who is out of the house more and go away with my friends for weekends rather than him as he isn’t bothered.

It's far far easier for men to have an effect orders of magnitude greater than anything women can do, at fairly little cost to themselves if they wish. So the key for real change does lie with men. Especially senior men, but even men at lower levels can make quite a difference.

DP works in the 1950s in many ways: a completely male dept and all his superiors are entirely facilitated. But their approach to men working flexibly or part-time has changed over the last five years - with some confusion "but don't you have a wife for that?" but they seem to accept now even if they don't quite get it. This is at least partly due to DP just behaving as if it's an entirely normal thing for his family to come first, and it seems that this has encouraged more pliant men to pop their heads up and start asking for what they want too.

A woman, if they ever hired one, would have had endless subtle and not so subtle pressure for what DP gets just by blinking mildly and saying "but of course I'll need to be taking 2 weeks parental leave, my son has an op coming up next month".

P.s. thank you to all those doggedly carrying on having the conversation we want to have, about the real issues, despite the incessant derail attempts. It's really hard to make space for this kind of discussion and I really value this.

I don't think legislation or conventions that encourage men to take more family time out of work will make any difference. They don't not do stuff because they can't. Loads of women do stuff they theoretically can't but do it anyway because it has to be done. I am Schrodingers Woman (is it a mother? is it a product director? wave / particle) at several points in the week. Loads of men could do stuff already that they just don't want to. Yes they travel for work, commute etc but I do ocado on the train on my phone - have you ever seen a man do this? There is no point in clearly cosy, ring-fenced, well equipped little spaces (such as women don't have) for men to do parenting / housework in, because they'll just sit in them on their phones pleasing themselves, like they always do.

I am not against proper legislation and conventions about work that are family friendly for all parents, of course. It's just that it's not the answer to this problem.

You know all those women who are about to have their first baby and think they will write a book while on mat leave? Give that leave to men and they actually would. Or be on the playstation

speakout you are missing the point. Now that more women than ever are working, due to the cost of living, men are unable to be as facilitated as much. So they are HAVING to, for example, leave work sharp for a childcare pickup, take a day off for a sick child. They are being FORCED to give it up. And that’s not a bad thing. So I’m not victim-blaming at all.

It is necessary for the continuation of the human race that at least some people have children. If everyone were to stop having children, the human race would die out in less than 100 years. Extinct. So it's far to say that it's a pretty vital activity.

And yet, because men are in power and they don't personally birth babies, having children is seen a sort of silly and disruptive hobby that women insist on continuing to do. A hobby that interferes with Real, Important Work (like making guns for toddlers to shoot each other with, or hiding millions of tax pounds offshore).

What would happen if women collectively decided that having children wasn't really worth it and just stopped doing it?

Agree antigrinch that legislation can only take you so far. Most employers offer statutory parental leave for fathers, but nothing further - whereas most do offer maternity leave packages. This is because of, and perpetuates, a culture where men don’t take paid time off and women do.

And if anyone is in doubt about how incredibly undervalued having/rearing children is, take a look at the ceremonies happening this weekend, yet again commemorating men's violence. Where is the minute's silence for the 800 women a day who die trying to bring new life into the world? Is bringing life into the world less important than killing each other?

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support

This was me.* Then when I divorced I found myself financially fucked and 7 years on I’m still struggling.*
Girls should be taught at an early age to be financially independent but so many are still stuck at home until they meet someone because they can’t afford to move out on their own.* My mother and grandmother were the same. I really wish I had a career that paid well rather than just a job.*

Arrrr don’t know why the second part is in bold

For perspective, since the end of World War II, taking today's rates of maternal mortality (which have become significantly lower in the last 20 years) at least 21 million women have died in childbirth.

I agree completely that just giving statutory leave alone isn’t enough - here in Sweden is parental leave (mammaledig is only for the immediate post birth period.) the employer doesn’t pay it, the state does, up to 80% of your wage and up to a certain ceiling (roughly 2700 quid a month.) when it was first made equal it was noticed that not enough men were taking it. It was decided that forcing equality was a bad idea so anmiddle way was taken - each partner has 90 days of the 480 you get per child and if they don’t use them they lose them. The rest are transferable between the parents (and paid at a bafflingly complex Mix of higher and lower paid dates, it’s an insanely complicated system.)

That small nudge boosted numbers a lot - and that in turn has knock on effects. You DO see men here pushing prams on parental leave. You do see men at the doctors waiting room. You do see men doing much more of the ‘life admin’ stuff.

Moving here was a real eye opener for me. Because it showed me that while the uk is ok, it still has a long way to go in terms of sex equality.

This is relevant because the facilitation we are talking about here doesn’t happen in a vacuum. It happens on a societal background of women doing all this stuff and men, quite frankly, shirking it. Housework/ emotional load is kind of the flip side of the facilitation men have.

I firmly believe that you can’t tackle this in isolation. We need to stop as much of this genderised crap as possible from birth. That means having a look at why we put baby girls in pink. And then in clothes they can’t run and play and climb in. Why girls school shoes aren’t as tough as the ones for boys. Etc etc.

And these are al issues people laugh at and do the ‘shut up you shrill feminazi’ shit at. But it’s inportant. Because it sets up the dynamic that eventually leads to women acting as servants to men.

And that’s what facilitation is - it’s male dominance of women, and women subsiding their desires and needs to those of men.