Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

Hi KERALA I wasn't magic circle but I'm confident my theory holds good across the board. I get no satisfaction from knowing this is the case. They do make up the odd token female, exclusively those without children where I worked.

From your list of 'what the women did' I went in house after my 2nd child. I had a sort of breakdown trying to maintain my work ethic between DC1 and 2.

There are many things that frustrate me as a feminist about where I live at the moment, but the big one (that people tend not to see unless I point it out) is that older girls are expected to take on a huge amount of domestic work from an early age. They clean, cook and look after younger children so that their mums can go out to work. Boys (and dads) have no such expectations on their shoulders.

It does seem that as a society the uk has not crossed the rubicon in terms of believing that the day to day drudge of life work is not solely a female preserve. It’s a mind set. Apart from the uk I have most experience of the Netherlands, which seems miles ahead in terms of that mindset.

• Scoobyloo

I love the positivity of those who think men would share the home-load if everyone could work part-time.

Unfortunately I doubt it. Probably jaded due to my own experience, but it's more likely men would just spend more time on their stuff. *

This is exactly what I found. There were a few years when we had one child and I was the main breadwinner working full time. DH was retraining and worked part time. I ended up coming home every day to a bomb site, had to cook dinner at 7pm after a long day at work and do cleaning/laundry WHILE HE HAD BEEN IN THE HOUSE ALL DAY. So, yeah, this is exactly what I have arrived at: if a man is not working AT WORK, he is not going to be working at home anyhow and will just suit himself with what he wants to do. So, three children later and having tried to WOH, I have gone with the set up which has us both working about equally: I do not work outside home ( very very part time work for myself) and he works all the hours God sends us. Then I do not feel aggrieved when I am on my feet until 11pm doing family stuff and housework because I know I will have the morning to use how I wish.

What is true though, I am a lot higher qualified academically, but after having children my earning capacity went down, down and stopped. While my DH’s took off like nobody’s business, and he does not have half of my ‘academic’ capital in factual terms. He earns handsomely now, but only because of the unseen work I do. I know for a fact, he won’t have done so spectacularly well without rather shrewd facilitating on my part.

I make the best of it and work within the societal framework I am stuck in. This set up won’t be my choice, I’d rather be using my degrees than being the invisible force at home. But as we have children, I made this decision as it is best for their wellbeing and family wellbeing in general. We don’t have takeaways several times a week like when I was working, I can go to the gym a lot, the life runs a lot smoother for everyone. But it comes at a price: my DH has to work more hours than he would choose to and I have given up a large part of my identity which was my career. Plus all the financial risk and vulnerability stuff, well aware of that too...

What’s frustrating and unfair is

1. The total obliviousness of men to the support they receive
Total?

2. The dishonesty of men who do realise but don’t acknowledge it, and the dishonesty of women who have convinced themselves that they are happy doing it.
There seems to be a lot of time, effort and emotional energy second-guessing what is /isn't going on in other families' lives. How do you know? How do you know if your next door neighbours appreciate / acknowledge what they each do for each other. Your critical judgement leads you to conclude that any woman who appears happy "facilitating" must be being dishonest (ie lying). If it makes you feel better to believe that their happiness can only be a lie - that's absolutely fine . I hope it gives you some comfort and peace of mind.

3. That most people receiving this facilitation are men, and that lots of women who need it, don’t, and finally
This might be true. But I notice from OP a disdain for the concept of "team" by her opening statement and then her sneers of GO TEAM!!. It might also be true that both parties in any couple - be it male/female or same sex (especially a couple bringing up a family) support each other as they each choose to (balanced and making a unique contribution to the "partnership"). It's up to them how to discuss and agree a division of labour and work that is right for them.

4. That lots of women are forced into facilitating against their wishes.
No-one should have to put up with that. We have heard of lots of examples on this thread where women have decided to get out of such situations.

herethereandeverywhere

Hi KERALA I wasn't magic circle but I'm confident my theory holds good across the board. I get no satisfaction from knowing this is the case. They do make up the odd token female, exclusively those without children where I worked

I'm not in a magic circle firm. My personal experience of the firms I have worked in and my colleagues' and friends' does not accord with your personal experience.

It does seem that as a society the uk has not crossed the rubicon in terms of believing that the day to day drudge of life work is not solely a female preserve. It’s a mind set

It is a mindset which , from this thread and many similar ones, that women seem to complain about but are little inclined to do anything practical about. It is all very well demanding there must be wide ranging changes in the structure of society but this starts at home.

It is all very well demanding there must be wide ranging changes in the structure of society but this starts at home

Or other people's homes - apparently, Lass.

melody just because it works for you doesn't mean that this structural issue is good for women as a whole. There are many women who are comfortable and happy with such a set up but it is one that perpetrates male power and had many disadvantages for women.

You may be okay with this or maybe it's because all the other options are less comfortable.

Not sure you're ever going to get this concept we're trying to discuss.
((Sound of head banging against a wall))

I don't think it's quite as black & white as "starts at home" or "needs societal change in the form of legislation" - "starts at home" is just individualism again which has not ever been successful that I can think of in changing societal attitudes, without the wider work ranging from raising awareness (in the way that for example, Let Toys Be Toys has been successful at in their campaign topic) to lobbying for change in law (or enforcement of existing ones - Maternity Action and the like)...

Let’s put it another way. If you are a heterosexual man, you have, I dunno, a 95 per cent chance of finding a life partner who ends up facilitating your career and daily life by providing support in the way we have been discussing. If you are a woman, it’s probably less than 5 per cent (we are talking the whole shebang - DH does it all so you only have to think about work and making money to support the family). Coincidence? Or because women are natural home makers / not ambitious / stupider than men / martyrs? No.

Let’s thinks about that mythical woman who opts to be the facilitated person in the wonderful “team”. First, she has to be socialised from a young age to speak up for herself, to take what she needs to get what she needs, to have sharp elbows, to network with the right people, to embrace STEM subjects at school .... then she has to get a job in an industry that doesn’t write women off at 30 as baby incubators and takes her potential seriously and gives women real opportunities (not law, or finance)... this job has to pay so much that most men she dates don’t earn that much..... then she has to find a man who feels okay or even more than okay about her making more money than him. She has to find a man who will share parental leave or even take most of it without worrying about his personal success or ego or security (is this man a bit naive?). A man who will organise the birthdays and take time off when the kids are sick and get passed over for promotion and not be able to save much pension because he earns not very much and took a career break.

Well good fucking luck with that!

You may be okay with this or maybe it's because all the other options are less comfortable

There you go again.., maybe its because all the other options are less comfortable. If it makes you feel happy to believe that, good for you. I wish you well.

And before anyone accuses me of wanting this for women instead of men.. it’s a thought experiment to demonstrate that it’s not coincidence that these “teams” are nearly always set up with the woman being the facilitator. And that the reasons at a population level, cannot be explained away as individual choice.

And yes, it’s often uncomfortable for women to be the breadwinner etc. We are not socialised that way. It’s much more acceptable for a woman to give up an amazing career opportunity than a man.

One of the hedge funds I work with, I was chatting to them about a man who had closed his hugely successful fund because he wanted to be less stressed and enjoy seeing his family and he had plenty of money. The men were all so shocked that he would close the fund at such a great time. A similar thing happened to one of the (rare) female fund managers. The guy I was debating this very topic with said to me “ahh but women don’t even want this stuff, she gave up to see her family more, good for her”. It was only when I pointed out the insanity of accepting this explanation from her, but not the man, that my debate counterpart acknowledged the point.

Mrlody, I did not say all men this or all women that. I described some behaviours which in my experience are common.

No one is having a go at you. Relax. If you’re one of those who feels you have an equal relationship then what about this thread is worrying you?

TheGrumpySquirrel and don't forget biology - while establishing this stellar career you have until aged 42ish to meet your life partner and complete your family. Men have a good 10 years longer.

As I have said, either greater recognition for the facilitation role, less of the presenteeism in the workplace and/or less of the "one bite of the cherry" attitude with regard to careers - why shouldn't one have 5 or 6 years out of a 50 year working life to raise kids? - would make things a lot more equal imo.

Oh yeah sorry - and in order not to be written off as a baby incubator she has to delay kids until she’s reached MD level 👍🏼

PolarBear - yes, tackling presenteeism & negative attitudes towards career breaks would reduce the advantages of facilitation.

In tech, I've seen increasing awareness that asking people to complete time consuming technical tests in their own time before interview weeds out a lot of excellent candidates with commitments outside work - it seems to be very gradually becoming a red flag for a company that expects to own you body & soul, which makes me hopeful.

Great post grumpy. And you know the irony is if that one successful woman finds the man to facilitate her everyone on MN would probably call him a cocklodger.

This type of thread is fairly typical .. and she even does the “man jobs” 😂 got to laugh or I’d cry

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3084670-Old-Chestnut-DH-does-no-housework

Yes often we make a rod for our own backs. But it takes a hell of a lot to go against hundreds of years of brainwashing socialisation. Got to bring up our kids to expect and do different things.

This comic is a great illustration of the unseen load women bear:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

*. Tinycitrus

We both work ft but DP works from home. I think we share pretty equally but it is still bloody hard.
I’m doing housework/childcare all weekend while he finishes a project. Then I start work again on Monday.

Many male colleagues have a wife with a ‘wee job’ at home. They are not exhausted on a Monday morning *

This was so my experience when I worked FT with a child. I would come into work utterly exhausted and worn out by the ‘weekend’ of doing the week’s worth of housework in two days while also looking after a toddler. I ALWAYS felt more tired on a Monday than on a Friday! Even with my demanding full-on job, I felt it was easier life at work and I was coming there for a rest. Totally relate to that.

Let’s thinks about that mythical woman who opts to be the facilitated person in the wonderful “team”.

My wife is the facilitated person in this house, but she works part-time on a little above NMW.

Bumble, does your DW have a genuine choice though? That IS the question. I have not got a shadow of a doubt that I will now be working FT forging a career if I knew somebody would look after my children truly well, all the domestic tasks will be done with no involvement on my part and I didn’t need to go into a mad panic about asking for time off if they were ill. Note I have not got onto the subject of a husband yet who also expects to be cared for. This is the kind of ‘choice’ we have and it is not a free choice in my book by a mile.

windygallows

There are many women who are comfortable and happy with such a set up but it is one that perpetrates male power and had many disadvantages for women

You reveal the true focal point of your resentment here. Of course it is other women who are the perpetrators (your word).
What would make you happy?

Let me guess...

If it's not crystal clear to others...
"women who are comfortable and happy". I have come across "feminists" like you before.

Isn’t what you are describing just teamwork. When I met DH he and I earned the same, now I earn half as much and do most of the childcare. He couldn’t do what he does without me but I couldn’t have half such good things and times and work reduced hours without him. I honestly think I have had far more fun over the years.