Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

My swimming pool example is not unusual at all, I see this every week. One week, the woman had triplets!
It's basically the expectation that the woman will do it and it is her responsibility to ask her husband / partner to take some of the load off her. I think there is a lot of subtle pressure on women not to say 'actually, I do enjoy work and sometimes more than being at home with 2 kids' .
A colleague at work didn't consider sharing parental leave or asking to reduce his hours as he doesn't think he'd cope (yes I ask outright). But of course his wife isn't asked if she's coping. Another colleague has loads of leave left to use before the end of the year, funny how he hasn't taken it in the school holidays despite having school aged children. Again he openly says he prefers being at work. I certainly had days in the holiday when I'd rather have been at work, but overall I don't think it's fair for the kids to spend more time at holiday club than necessary so I spend 95% of my holidays with the kids.

THat's a relationship issue though.

If it happens in one relationship then it's a relationship issue.

If it's a pattern repeated in thousands of relationships up and down the country, then perhaps there is something deeper going on...

"How wonderful that you live the status quo and don't want to consider what happens if your husband ups and leaves"

How do you know they haven't considered that?

*If it happens in one relationship then it's a relationship issue.

If it's a pattern repeated in thousands of relationships up and down the country, then perhaps there is something deeper going on*

You have a dim view of women.

Urgh what has happened to this thread? It's not supposed to solely be about SAHMs but about the various structural elements that make life easy for men.

Melody why are you making this so personal and being so vindictive and frankly weird about wanting to know MY issues? I raised this as a post because I think it's something that bothers me and that others might understand. Who cares what I want? You seem to think I secretly want what you have. Your posts are getting weirder and weirder and you and a few others have basically derailed an interesting thread to post about your SAHM experiences.

Let’s talk about the issue at hand and stop trying to convince 1 or 2 GFs that the issue exists in the first place... agree to disagree? all those in favour 🙋🏻‍♀️

To return to the point about paying SAHMs...

The very fact that this is mooted as an idea suggests that the issue is more with a lack of recognition. In a capitalist society the default way to recognise a person's contribution is to pay them. It's this that is the issue.

Obviously we all need money to function. It's all well and good me getting the state pension top-ups while I care for a child under 5 but we all know that a state pension isn't a guaranteed system. Perhaps rather than fannying about with child benefit and shared tax allowances in families with SAHP / non taxpayers, it'd be better to have WOH partner pay into a designated pension pot, with a government top up, like employers now have to? I don't know I'd like it (as SAHP myself, although we have actually made a similar arrangment ourselves) or that it's really doable but it'd be a start.

It sounds like facilitators also end up facilitating big businesses by allowing them to work their facilitated employees into the ground. That is the issue, too - big businesses taking the piss time and again. I am always horrified at the number of people who work 50+ hours a week on here, plus 2 or 3 hours commuting time most days. Is that really necessary (of course not) when so many jobs just need a laptop and broadband thesedays?

I’m with you grumpy. This is about structural inequality which affects all women, whether they work at home or outside it.

Well said Grumpy. Strange to see adults incapable of arguing beyond the personal and specific.

Agreed Grumpy. Talking about structural inequality is a fuck load more interesting.

Going back to the original topic: what skills, knowledge, and experience do you think that constant facilitation prevents someone from developing ?

It's clear that the boost that some men get from facilitation can displace more capable candidates, and increases homogeneity at senior levels resulting in an often startling lack of perspective. What else gets lost?

Organisation, efficiency... consideration for others.. are the first that come to mind

In a word?

Empathy:

The realisation that other people’s lives are not like theirs.

And that has big knock on effects - because hey if I as a man can do it so can you! Right? That’s why as a pp said the ‘get women back to work’ campaigns focus on what some are doing wrong, not on the fact that some men have huge advantages.

A facilitated mans world narrows down - they have no idea thatcthisblittle army of people is assisting their success. They only see themselves. They see no external locus of action and falsely think that it’s all down to them. The logical error prevents them from seeing the bigger picture.

I've always said that an ambitious working mother needs a good wife - it's so often the difference between making it up the greasy pole and not. At the top tables I have sat around, the women there either have no children, have step children or only have one child. The men tend to have 3,4,5 children and a SAH wife

“Who Cooked Adam Smith’s Dinner” is a really good book on this subject.

Women’s behind-the-scenes work has facilitated men’s more visible achievements and it’s not necessarily just about giving women the opportunity to achieve in the same way as men, but about recognising what women do.

I think that’s why countries where the mother is a strong central and admired character of the family, patriarchy has lasted longer.

Empathy yes.

Humility.

Also more and more to lose if facilitating is lost, so more & more incentive to keep it in place.

You'd have thought this would lead to some kind of investment in making sure the army of supporters was kept happy - but instead you see it come out as defensiveness?? In general, why isn't the facilitation more thankfully acknowledged?

yesterday 09:00 windygallows
No one told me that if I want to have a comfortable life then I better get a man. In a way we're lying to our daughters by suggesting they can have it all themselves without telling them that it's not a career but latching onto a man that will probably make the biggest difference in terms of the comfort of their life and their wealth

I can only hope that quote is out of context. If I had a daughter I would be telling her never to be economically dependant on a man.

Lass my comment which you note below was really to state that for many women wealth and lifestyle creation comes more from getting married than their own income. It was just a statement of fact as I see it. I don't think this is what we should aspire to nor do I pursue it myself.

I have a daughter Lass and I wouldn't advise to follow OP's logic .

I'm not giving this advice to my Dds and clearly neither am I following it as I have worked FT for 25 years - barring mat leave - and been single for most of my life. It was purely an observation not a recommendation.

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. You have described it perfectly.

In my profession, when I worked for a City firm (solicitor) there was also what I described as the 'work wife'. I expect this is not confined to law. Male partners and senior associates would have a female 'number 2'. The female associates were always more diligent and harder working than their more senior male counterpart. The man knew he had a 'safe pair of hands' to leave the long hours of difficult detailed work to, leaving him free to do his rainmaking/networking/mentoring other junior men to work in the same manner. The women all believed they were working hard to advance their careers and whilst they got to a certain point, they never filled the shoes of the men keeping them as work wives. Unwittingly facilitating them.

Male partners in my firm just stared at me blankly when I explained I couldn't always expect my partner (DH) to pick up the kids/put them to bed/prepare dinner/ buy food/ do washing or whatever. They literally just got up dressed themselves and travelled to work. Everything else was put in place around them. Ditto when they got to the office, coffee, meetings, travel, their wives birthdays, whatever.

We're lying to our daughters by suggesting they can have it all themselves without telling them that it's not a career but latching onto a man that will probably make the biggest difference.

It's a lie?

They still need the career to initially meet a man. One woman I know has a Cambridge degree fabulous CV and hasn't worked since she was 6 months pregnant with her 2nd 7 years ago.

Her DH earns hundreds of thousands a year and she goes to the gym and chooses their next house. Initially met at work.

Not a lifestyle for me (God damn my inability to rely on anyone but myself!) but seems cushy if you're confident you'll never divorce.

They still need the career to initially meet a man
So what exactly is being advocated here?
Find a man to be a good provider for a cushy lifestyle but then don't "facilitate" him?

I got paid to be a facilitator by government and dh.
I went to work pt as I felt guilty receiving the money for not working for an employer.
The gov gave me more, they keep giving me more.
Soon, they won't be giving me anything and that will be fine, I'll keep facilitating and working pt, because that's what makes me happy.
I don't judge others for their choices.
All money is easily accessible to us both and treated as equal.
Being a facilitator, I manage the pot anyway.

I feel I’m fighting against the cultural narrative that as a woman I’m happy to stay at home wiping arses whilst hubby goes out earning £££££. I want to go out and earn £££££. I did not choose to be a sahp. I’ll be looking at starting again at 40 and if I’m lucky my dh won’t leave me before I can establish something again. I don’t want to be consigned to a minimum wage job that I do until I can draw state pension at 68 because I had an employment gap around children that was not my personal choice. I have had no personal choice and I’m not alone. 1000s of women are in my position every year. How many of us are facilitating because we were shoved here and it would be churlish to not cook a meal or put a wash on?