Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

Yes, women need to stop fearing being labelled angry.

Unfortunately part of the power imbalance is that we need men's approval more than they need ours.

They do, caution. I think we've had the full house on this thread.

Certainly the angry and bitter part of it.

I took five year ‘out’ and had three children. It has took me five years to get ‘back’ to where I was. I am now earning more than before. But it was a sharp lesson in ‘choices’ that can be made.

I work in a male dominated organisation and sit in very senior meetings. I look around at the white middle aged guys and the single woman who is at their level. I wonder what it took fir her to get there. Usually she will no children -or one child - and will have gone back to when after 6 months mat leave. These women are truly inspiring people but achieving that level of seniority in a macho area of work requires sacrifices that most women are not prepared (or conditioned) to make.

Sorry ‘taken’ me ...

In ALL aspects of their lives, not just their work life but their personal life, the RELENTLESS SUPPORT that men get is SILENCED, UNACKNOWLEDGED.

How do YOU KNOW? It IS NOT silenced or unacknowledged in MY life.

Seriously melody are we still talking about you about your experience? This thread isn't about your sole viewpoint.

@MoreProseccoNow

In my next life, I am coming back as a man.

Yep me too.

Definitely a key feminist issue. It will take a long time to solve sadly. I am -incredibly reluctantly- facilitating my husband.

Through all small personal choices with my eyes wide open I somehow drifted into this situation.

It is different in my home country. Childcare is more affordable. There are tax benefits for working families (which really jolts dads into action!), schools send messages to ‘parents’ rather than mums, commutes are shorter, and jobs are less competitive and it is actually possible to pick up your child at 6pm and have dinner with them AND have a job. Lots of the ‘choices’ women make are heavily influenced by family friendly policies. More than you think.

Then lots of it is also influence by what we do individually. My husband DOES know our choices have not made me happy. As a result he DOES support women at work. Many of his colleagues have wives that say ‘This was just best for our family’ and happily continue to believe that their wife is perfectly happy with her choice. If I then speak to the wife, she actually DOES miss her job, her independence and her own income. But what can she do? She doesn’t want to abandon her kids to a nanny, and he certainly isn't going to do his half of the parenting job. If he is not doing his own laundry or tidying up his own coffeecup you can leave it for a week (although that takes effort) and create a better balance in the household (although it takes a lot of persistence and energy). If he doesn't do his parenting part, you have to step in.

But it really is not men against women. This great article shows what happens when dad is just doing his part of the parenting for a year while his wife does her part of the income earning. www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/what-ruth-bader-ginsburg-taught-me-about-being-a-stay-at-home-dad/384289/

melody i never said things were tickety boo with me if anything that's what you're saying about your set up. Please stop all the goading.

Melody you are not making any sense. Please let people talk about this.

The right to comment on someones individual situation is a natural part of a discussion of something that we are debating as seen as a pattern / institution in society as a whole. Society IS just a whole lot of individuals. If you don't want any comment on your individual set-up, don't join a debate on patterns of set-up?

Melody what is so difficult to understand.

Of course not everyone is supporting a man and it’s not acknowledged, but in the vast majority of cases this is true, and it is wrong and we need change.

I am in a very fortunate position, that doesn’t mean I’m going to say nothing when I can see the majority are in a different situation. I stand up for what I believe in, and true equality is one of those things. I have it in my relationship, and I believe I have it at work (being the boss helps), but i want to ensure that we have it as a society.

When I had my first major promotion in 2000 I had a young child and 2 young stepchildren. My child often got ill unfortunately and i struggled with managing the guilt and the work and the household stuff like lunchboxes as both my DH had demanding jobs. I usually left the house at 7 am and often didn't get back until 1 am . My boss, the CEO told me I ought to 'get a wife', or tell my husband to give up his job or else get a live in nanny. He had a wife who stayed at home to look after his 3 kids. It was a total nightmare and I didn't stay.

It is a structural problem. As I said upthread, DH is one of 4 employees with babies under 1. Only one of these employees has been offered temporarily reduced workload (no change in seniority) and family friendly working. Which one? The woman, as part of their "let's encourage women not to leave this profession". This is great for her (and better than nothing) but why are the men not offered the same (for the 1st 3 years of the child's life, say)? It can only be because they are assumed not to have the same parental responsibilities. Certainly in my case, if DH was offered say 4 days a week I would be much more inclined to go back to work for longer hours. I am hoping to start work but in an at home job significantly less well paid and with fewer benefits than my office job pre-kids.

I'm sure some men don't mind being assumed not to have equal responsibility for their kids and not being an equal parent but many would love a more equal model. I do know a few couples who each work part time and share the drop offs / pick ups and they seem happy. It is rare to find jobs that accomodate this though, particularly well paid jobs as has been mentioned.

Windy, yes I agree being a single mother is not like living with a man and sorting his life. But many of the examples given of sorting men’s lives on this thread are about looking after kids.

And I appreciate that you can’t make your ex have the kids live with him half the time.

But many women in relationships would say the same, they can’t make their partners do half the child rearing.

They could all become single mothers too, but it won’t make the men step up either.

I think the pay gap is the main issue, as it’s usually the lower earner who takes more time off after having children. That’s also why uptake of shared leave is so small: few families can afford for the main earner (usually the man) to take time off.

And the cost of childcare is exorbitant. Round here, you have to earn 35K to break even on 2 nursery places. Many families cannot afford to run at a loss, so the lower earner gives up. I know so many women who gave up after the 2nd child because they could not afford to run at a loss.

And then the man becomes facilitated, by default.

I’m fortunate that I earn more than that, and that (sadly due to m/c) my d/c were more spaced out & we could afford it. I went p/t after DC1 was born with health issues, but luckily the public sector is good for part-time & I have gone as far as I want to. And increased my hours again as I‘ve felt ready, without any loss of pay/seniority.

‘This thread isnt about you. Its about a systemic risk women take, to submerge themselves in husband and children. It does not end well for all women. 'Why does that happen and how can we change it' are reasonable questions.‘

I’m not convinced that is what this thread about, or it would be full of suggestions about how we promote and facilitate older women when they re enter the workforce, and how to make sure SAHMs are given decent state pensions.

@InkyGirl Thanks, that was a lovely article.

www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/what-ruth-bader-ginsburg-taught-me-about-being-a-stay-at-home-dad/384289/

I think the pay gap is the main issue, as it’s usually the lower earner who takes more time off after having children.

But women on average earn more than men in their 20s so if being the lower wage earner is the main factor we should be seeing far more men as SAHDs.

How about when people become parents, there is a law that says if the other parent does the childcare when they work, they have to pay the parent doing the childcare (or grandparent) 1/3 or 1/2 the cost of full time childcare. So, in families with a SAHM or D the family finances are the same but an amount each month goes into the SAHM/D bank account. The family is still better off than using childcare and the SAHM/D can use that money for groceries, bills whatever, but the person doing the care is more protected longer term. I'm sure there's a million reasons why this wouldn't work, though. Seemed like a good idea to me right now..... Could also help with all those single parents where the other parent dodges maintenance? Might be difficult in practice I suppose.

jelly maybe we will as shared parental leave is used more. It really hasn't been around that long yet.

they have to pay the parent doing the childcare (or grandparent) 1/3 or 1/2 the cost of full time childcare. So, in families with a SAHM or D the family finances are the same but an amount each month goes into the SAHM/D bank account. The family is still better off than using childcare and the SAHM/D can use that money for groceries, bills whatever, but the person doing the care is more protected longer term

How would that help? You are suggesting the SAHM gets paid but out of that pay is paying bills and groceries?

I've never had a joint bank account and have always had my own income. If I hadn't, if I were doing all housework and 9-5 childcare, I would have expected to be given an allowance for that for myself and bills to be taken out of the household pot.