Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

Interesting
It goes back to the choices we make when choosing a job or career, which get harder to change when children come along and things are more set

But also small changes can make a big difference. The last place I worked let people (all mothers) finish at 5.00 and start earlier instead of 6.00. From the MD down this kept more females in their careers as they could do nursery pick up - admittedly you’d want fathers doing this too in the spirit of the thread.

But just this small change brought about big change in the employee ratio. I was so used to seeing a huge amount of twenty / early thirty women around me then dropping off it made a very welcome change.

Thank you grumpysquirrel for calling out uninformed comments like that it's women's fault that they're not getting ahead, because they don't really want it. I'm was starting to feel like I am on a feminist thread from 1963 and was going to suggest a 'consciousness raising session'!!!!

I'm also calling bullshit on the idea that all poor women want is enough money to have babies and look after them.

History shows us that each and every time working class women are given opportunities beyond the domestic they grab them.

The happy stay at home housewives on this thread are missing the point. Its irrelevant to you how many older women tell you it did not end well for them, you dont want to hear about them. You want to make it all about you.
This thread isnt about you. Its about a systemic risk women take, to submerge themselves in husband and children. It does not end well for all women. 'Why does that happen and how can we change it' are reasonable questions.

History shows us that each and every time working class women are given opportunities beyond the domestic they grab them.
Oh Hell yes. The women in my family have always worked, even built freelance careers in retailing and in factories. My nan gave up work on marriage ( at 32 I think) but she didn't really want to. My grandpa was proud that he could afford for her not to work, so a lot of it was bound up in male working class pride.
Ordinary women thrive when faced with interesting opportunities, and when they are facilitated to take them up...

Im not trying to be dismissive of other people's experiences, or say that a career isn't worthwhile and there aren't issues.
I'm just saying that i feel spending time with kids is also a privilidge and not to be looked down on and seen as less than being career focused. I think sometimes people fail to see the value of family, i.e. This topic, women are scripted as the ones missing out, in one way of a career maybe, but having time with little ones to me is priceless.
We have to be careful when looking at restructuring things that we are not disadvantage others with a different life, ambitions and goals to our own. For instance i heard a feminist saying maternity leave is too long and should be reduced to improve career progress. This is taking away rights. Whilst it might be ok for someone with a good job, try telling a woman slogging in a factory that she has to be back in work in 6 months.
Different people have different views and that's because we all have different experiences of the world. Your reality isn't my reality. It's not as simple as your wrong/ right- no one is wrong or right, we have to listen to each other.
We also have to focus on the bigger picture- not just career, but on family as well- it's important and shouldn't be overlooked. There are more ways to find fulfilment in life than just your job.

I have not read the whole thread so probably joining in late...
I agree about facilitated men and the issue is that they just do not see it, who would..your life is progressing well, you work hard, you provide for your family etc...why would you stop and think ' but ah..i am able to do this because generally the females in my life do everything else'..
I do not necesssarily think men deliberately set out to become facilitated and probably feel it is a fair share of the labour.
But i do think to some degree women need to look at whether they themselves are the facilitators in the fact they go along with this...MN is absolutely full of women complaining that the DH cannot or do not do their share of 'wifework' when the both WOOH.

Well just bloody stop doing it for them....i was the archetypal wooh/over stretched/over worked/resentful martyr ...until one day i just stopped treating my dexh as a child, i stopped facilitating his life, and my children to a degree too....if you cant find something/need something ironed/pe kit washed blah blah...do it yourself...

If i wanted or needed to stay late at work i stopped ' asking my dexh ' to 'please could you do pick up today ' , i just announced it and then walked away....

a miracle happened..apparently men and children are perfectly able to find missing socks/keys/pe kit
are perfectyl able to work their own diaries around their children's needs
are perfectly able to take a day off when said children are sick
are perfectly able to buy their parents presents etc etc....WHEN THE WOMAN IN THEIR LIFE STOPS DOING IT FOR THEM

If women really did want to get ahead in their careers they could

Pop back and read what happened to me - in a nutshell, the second I let them know I was expecting I had my reporting chain taken off me, and my company closed ranks, cutting me off and trying to force me out. They couldnt fire me, because thank fuck there’s good legislation here...although they tried VERY hard to find small things they could add up. But they couldn’t, because i was professional and really good at what I do.
So instead they shunted me down and sideways, quasi legal at best.

My career has suffered and there was nothing, absolutely nothing, I could have done about it at that point. I’m fighting back, I’m back at work now, being just as good as I was and clawing my way back up. Dh is brilliant, supports me and has been quite shocked I think by it all - in his blue eyed swede positive way he thought that all was equal and hunky dory in the world and he’s been shown that actually, no, it really isn’t. So hopefully one more bloke with open eyes.

The derailing of my career is not me stepping back, or my husband not stepping up. It’s structural patriarchal company practice that assumes that a woman is worth less to the company than a man because a man is always facilitated by others in the background, leaving him free to serve the company’s whims.

Now that definitely ties into our Protestant work ethic and there’s a whole other debate about the value of work vs child rearing and their value in our society. But if a woman with an equal husband who sets out to be equal, is constantly shafted by the system, then I propose the system isn’t working for women.

Trying to make work and family function with no facilitating people (no family here) is exhausting for us both. And yet only my career is fucked.

When family visit I see what a colossal difference it makes to have even just a bit of help.

Exactly. How wonderful if you love the status quo and don’t want to consider what happens if your husband ups and leaves. What about all the other women who don’t want that and are being channelled into it because the people in charge quite like believing women are happy to look after families for nowt so restrict our choices for us?

I'm quite flabberghasted by this notion that my feminism is about looking for someone to "blame" for my "problems", like melody says upthread.

Do you honestly think this is sour grapes from people who can't hack working life? Arf. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm very well paid and successful. The system's still fucked. I might have won, but it's still a rigged game, and more women than men are losing and I care about that because I'm not completely heartless and self centred. That's not a good society to live in - we can be better than this. We can do better. My feminism is aspirational. And yes, it is a white middle class feminism, because I'm a white middle class feminist. Nothing to be ashamed of there.

I like that quotation about not leaving the poison for others.

Missy this thread isn't really meant to be about career advancement for women, it's to highlight the fact that in ALL aspects of their lives, not just their work life but their personal life, the RELENTLESS SUPPORT that men get is SILENCED, UNACKNOWLEDGED. And that this is a structural problem. This is an issue for women but really it's about men.

When's the last time you heard a man say 'I'm not sure I can do it without my wife/partner'? When did you ever hear someone refer to a man at work or in their personal life that 'They're lucky they have someone to help them'. That narrative just doesn't exist. (Well occasionally we complain when men are living at home at 40 and babied by their mothers but aside from that it's not something that's talked about.) MEN certainly don't talk about 'juggling' everything.

All this needs to be changed.

I wouldnt say I'm a happy housewife either,
I have a good career, earn more than husband- but i chose to go part time and have decided for now I don't want promotion while my daughters are still little. My husband said he'd go part time but I really wouldn't want him to because I value my time at home with them too much to want to give it up. So at the moment he's definitely facilitating me.

Exactly, windy.

When did an interviewer last ask a successful male public figure how they manage to juggle work and family life?

Why does the phrase "career man" not exist?

And do you know what else I loathe. That if you DO end up with a man who wants facilitating, then that's YOUR OWN STUPID FAULT TOO.

It STILL isn't his fault. He doesn't have to be grateful (the point of the thread), if it's not working then she's the one who ought to change by dropping her standards or accepting that stuff won't get done, and if she complains about it, she's only making herself out to be a victim!

What a masterful bait and switch.

@windygallows Thank you for encapsulating so much in two words: "facilitated men." Can I give another example of how the "facilitated male" is treated by his employers ? I worked until recently in a fairly tough commercial environment which was results driven. Fair enough. One guy was not performing. At all. On any objective or subjective measure - targets were not met and he was manifestly unsuited for the role, without the suitable skill-set or experience in the sector.

After many months, I went to my boss and discussed it, though it was already common knowledge. When I said we might need to bring someone else in instead, I was told "he's the breadwinner, he's got young kids. Show some compassion.." And he got to stay for another year-
a year! - despite the poor performance.

Contrast that small anecdote with the 30,000- 50,000 women a year who lose or leave their jobs after having children.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/managing-pregnancy-and-maternity-workplace/pregnancy-and-maternity-discrimination-research-findings.

*But i do think to some degree women need to look at whether they themselves are the facilitators in the fact they go along with this...MN is absolutely full of women complaining that the DH cannot or do not do their share of 'wifework' when the both WOOH.

Well just bloody stop doing it *

I don’t think this is as simple as it sounds, even on an individual level. As far as I can see, the major domestic inequality creeps in when the first child is born. At this point, two things often happen. First, the woman is on maternity leave and develops the ‘baby expertise’/habit: she does the bulk of the grunt work of child rearing and acclimatises to thinking about their needs (what and when to feed, clothes, sleep routines etc). Second, she ends up taking on more of the general domestic work (even if it was previously shared equally) because she is physically at home. This means that when she goes back to work, in order to avoid inequality, the man needs to step up in a major way, both in taking on childcare responsibility and taking back his share of the domestic labour that he has got used to not doing. Very often this doesn’t happen, because, especially in relation to the domestic work, it was often not a conscious decision that he didn’t do it, but it requires conscious effort to redress. So women can find themselves sliding into the position of doing everything. They then have a real fight to divest themselves of the responsibility.

In ALL aspects of their lives, not just their work life but their personal life, the RELENTLESS SUPPORT that men get is SILENCED, UNACKNOWLEDGED. And that this is a structural problem. This is an issue for women but really it's about men

Why are you SHOUTING?
I thought you said you weren't ANGRY!!

It’s realky not as simple as stopping doing ‘the second shift.’

We both work ft have 3 children and ageing parents.
I think we share the work pretty equally but the fact is that there are not enough hours in the day.

I am having a cup of tea, checking mumsnet abd will them spend today cleaning, washing, ironing and running errands while DP works.

I am up st 6am and leave the house st 7.30am. DP looks after kids before school, shops and cooks evening meal for everyone.

We are both exhausted. All the time. But we are not living a luxurious lifestyle -four bed flat in s major city. We can however afford a holiday each year

I worked with many women who would do a 10 hour night shift until 8am and fret about their DP getting the children ready fur school. The consensus was that men just aren’t capable. These women would go home care fir their children and snatch a few hours sleep in the evening before doing another night shift. They had no choice.

In my next life, I am coming back as a man.

As John Lydon would say, anger is an energy. It suits the patriarchy if we don't express our frustration at the societal disadvantages we face as a class. You have read posts from women whose careers and lives have been stunted by the structural disadvantages they have faced. I think they are entitled to be angry and it is wrong to try and silence that.

Sorry that post was to Melody in response to her little dig at a poster for using caps.

And for those of us who are facilitating but not currently earning outside the home, for whatever reason, I have some practical suggestions. I appreciate that some will be struggling to make ends meet. But the principle should be as follows. Take your husband's income, less all bills/ mortgage/ petrol/ groceries which should be in a joint account. Then split the remainder equally between you. Call it spousal maintenance. Call it fun money. Call it whatever you like. But make sure it is paid into your personal sole bank account each month plus a contribution to your pension. Its not an answer of course. But it does stop women being quite so vulnerable for that period. If its a genuine joint decision that the woman stays at home, then finances need to be equally split. And you should both equally enjoy any rise in income that his facilitated promotions provide. Perhaps I am being vulgar. Perhaps I will be criticised for being too transactional (though FT childcare is likely to cost alot more). But golly, in general, my rule is to follow the money...

Personally, I think it's weird to see an injustice and not get angry.

I don't want to be someone who just shrugs and says "ah, well, I'm sure there are good reasons for this imbalance. Let's not dwell on it".

I think women should be a lot more angry.

Oh do be quiet Melody or should I say BE QUIET! I was putting it in caps for emphasis, I'm not sitting and screaming at the computer. FGS.

Missy of course looking after little ones is valuable and a wonderful thing to do. (Which is why it would be lovely if the expectation was that men should experience more of it.)
But it must be an actual choice, not a fake choice. Listen, when mine was tiny I didn't want to be away a lot. I certainly didn't want to even work full time. But do you know what? As they get older, and you realise what a short span of time the early years really are, you come out of the mummy bubble and start to look around you. And it starts to seem really unfair that a few years out can impact so intensely on the rest of your life.

When people want to silence women they call them angry, bitter and shrill.