Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

stillwish this is my plan too though it's a long way off for me (DD2 a baby). but I do feel to even start to do it now would be harmful to the DC, and this is where I think women get stuck facilitating....

Since people are saying what do women want, here are my wants for a better world (for women and men):
Men called out on being shit parents - for those divorced men child maintenance should be paid and non-payment properly investigated and punished (take away driving license / take from source income/prison). Men not praised if they do something that a Mum wouldn't get praised for.
More flexible Childcare options in or near the workplace
More flexible/ Part time work options particularly in professional jobs.
Help for women /men who have been SAH to get back to work (tax breaks for companies who employ women/men returning to work after child rearing career break).
Just some thoughts. At least there is shared parental leave now. This is a good thing I think.

It's clear she is not talking about women who work full time.

actually I think it applies as well. I know far too many women working full time and still doing all the house associated work. That means they are shattered, unable to work later when they need to while the husband often can. It means that they end up with a damaged career, resentful and with a man baby on their hands. I actually think this is one of the biggest drivers of relationship breakdown.

And it can happen to you even if both you and your partner are committed to equality just because thats how the world is set up

If you read my posts above you’ll see that this is how we are struggling at the moment.

And one other anecdote about a two working parent couple:

We have some friends where both work (as almostvall our friends do, sahp setup very rare here.) she’s just got a better job - no W let me make it absolutely clear this isn’t a high flying corporate role, it’s a mid level job. That requires some travel. The husband is giving her massive grief about ‘not being there for the children.’

She IS there for the children. She works about 42 hours a week. What he really means is that he’s had to step up doing more while she is away overnight once a week or so and he doesn’t like it.

I am doubtful their relationship will survive unless this is sorted.

Facilitating men works across the spectrum. From sahms to couples where both try to work high powered jobs.

OP
You've got a cosy life being a facilitator and it works for you. I bet you're even part of the team and your husband's success is your success. Well done

You seem to be putting a lot of emotional energy into judging and critiquing the personal and professional arrangement choices made by others. What's it got to do with you?

Melody do you not see how individual choices impacts on the overall situation? If you don't see that then I can't explain it in a simple post.

Everyone just do what you want. There - happy?

I do think it’s rather arrogant to drop onto a board, make goady or faux naive comments and expect everyone else to stop talking about the subject and address all your feminism 101 questions.

If I decide to buy chicken, I don’t go onto the chicken keepers board , interrupt a discussion about some specific bird disease and ask “ but why do chickens need fed anyway? “ , “ which end do the eggs come out?” . And then get arsey when told to go off and read a book on the basics .

I’d read a book. Or spend a few hours reading through an online forum or blog. Or read the threads on the chicken keepers board. And then if I still couldn’t find an answer to “ which end do the eggs come out ? “ I’d start my own thread and hope someone would answer.

Because that’s good manners.

melody this isn’t about the individual free choices couples make.

It’s about the structuring of society and work that just assumes that men will be facilitated and that women will be doing the facilitation.

And look - almost all situations end up doing this.
Women who stay at home and make sure their husband continues unimpeded
Women who work part time and still do everything round the house
Women who work full time and still do all the drudge work at home
Women who are employed as cleaners, nannies, PAs etc etc.

It’s almost likethe whole of society is structured so that men are inconvenienced as little as possible by having children

That’s the issue. Your personal choices are you own.

Anitidae I see that exact situation all the time too of a FT working woman run ragged because she's trying to do everything. It's so unfair and I think one of the reasons for the glass ceiling for career minded women. They are just about coping/managing and a move up to a more senior role and everything would fall apart.

And while I may have said in the OP that many men are supported by SAHM and PT working wives (and that is true) I'm generally just talking about the phenomenon of oblivious men being literally enabled by those around them to continue to exercise authority and power - not just at work but in all aspects of life. It starts in their 20s and 30s but by their 40s/50s/60s many men are oblivious but also fucking smug about it.

windygallows

Melody do you not see how individual choices impacts on the overall situation?

I do. Indeed I believe (in a free society) it is the only thing that impacts the overall situation. You claim not to want facilitation yourself but you appear angry and frustrated that others are "facilitated".

What if you and I were in the same line of work and I (for whatever reason) didn't have e.g. a PA, IT support or a cleaner to clean at my offices. I was getting it all done myself (on top of my own work). How would you respond to me if I were to say "I don't have any of that additional support. You shouldn't have it either."?

anatidae - I've read a lot of threads in relationships where women are considering leaving because of the sort of thing you describe - they're working, shattered and their husbands just aren't pulling their weight at home. And also cases where women have left and say how much easier their life is ONLY having to work, look after the children and do all the housework but no longer having to facilitate / look after another adult. I wonder what the divorce rate would be if men did an equal share of all parenting and housework tasks. It's sad, and important to have these discussions because honestly I think men just often don't see the problem.

Absolutely agree Indeed.

melody your question doesn't make sense.

But well done for making this all about me or a select group of women 'angry' 'frustrated' people. I bet you'd call Germaine Greer 'bitter', Betty Friedan 'frustrated', Mary Wollestonecraft a bit 'uppity' and our suffragette forebearers 'a bit too angry.' FFS.

What makes me even more ragey on this is when you see government or businesses doing "encourage women at work" - type programmes. They are ALWAYS aimed at encouraging women to change, and never on getting men to change.

Totally agree with how smug they are - they have no idea just how easy it has been for them.

I think the whole thing makes me question 'Why do men have wives'?

It's love of course that drives a couple to marriage and/or desire to have children and family, but do you think men know that with that comes domestic support, a PA and an easier life in general? Do you think that's recognized in male culture or talked about even? Do men know that the answer to an easier life is one where facilitation is ensured? I'm genuinely curious.

I think they have such a staggering sense of entitlement that they never even think about or even notice it.

Absolutely ltgreggs

Women will not be equal outside the home until men are equal in it.

I feel so sorry for my mum SAHM in the 60's 4 kids, never had a career. had to put up with her husbands constant affairs because there was no other option for her.
My job involves talking to many women of all ages, at least we have choices now but so many elderly ladies hate their husbands. When asked why they stayed they said in their day there was nowhere to go. No career options for them, only extreme poverty if they left.
Thank God we have choices now. We are not stuck in these awful situations and we CAN leave if we want.
Our lives are getting better and we definitely have more choices.

It’s almost like^the whole of society is structured so that men are inconvenienced as little as possible by having children

This. I'm not particularly proud of my decision to SAH / only work from home a bit part-time but I know my limits, working full time would break me at the moment (still doing nights with the baby). I know I would be less patient with the DC, they would suffer, our marriage would suffer if not break down entirely. My health and wellbeing and theirs (and DHs) come first.

However, I'd love to go out to work if I had a "wife" at home, if I knew the dc would be well looked after, meals cooked, shopping done etc. I would LOVE that. But now, DH earns 50% more than I could, having taken a career break, so it's not going to happen (plus, DH would hate it, he'd be bored stiff).

Ltgreggs I agree.

I think it starts with parental leave. A father should have exactly the same rights as a mother to leave and pay. It’s always the mums who take the time off, and that’s the start of the inequality - the Mum takes the lead on all things house and childcare and it never stops

I did a stint of part time after having my first. When I went back full time I was really struggling. I asked my lower paid h to consider part time. Years later he put it in divorce papers as part of my “unreasonableness” that I dared to ask him to go part time. Knob.

So I’ve had sole responsibility for the kids ever since, he just has them when he feels like it. I’m still facilitating him years later.

“And it can happen to you even if both you and your partner are committed to equality just because thats how the world is set up”

Yes, this is my situation. My DH has the best intentions of doing his fair share, and wants to do more. We talk about it all the time. But if I were a man, people would not expect me to do even 50 per cent of the home stuff (as I’m bringing home 80 per cent of the household income in a high pressure job). And I i were really doing half, id get massive kudos for it.

Anatidae
melody this isn’t about the individual free choices couples make

It certainly comes across that way from OP's comment:
You've got a cosy life being a facilitator and it works for you. I bet you're even part of the team and your husband's success is your success. Well done

We are all "facilitated". A rich middle class woman who has an army of help at home (e.g. a cleaner, a nanny) is more facilitated than a e.g. a busdriver who has to come home and do all that for herself. If you use a travel agent - you're "facilitated", if you use a decorator - you're "facilitated", if you use a hairdresser - you're "facilitated".

If there are people willing and happy to provide that facilitation (whatever it may be and for whatever reward they get in return), how will you ever change that? How could you ever get some kind of mythical level playing field where every single person in the workplace has exactly the same level of "facilitation"?

Melody you are choosing to completely ignore the sex based structural differences in this. Choices are not made in a vacuum.

It seems that some women on here appear to have signed up to be full time 'facilitators'

An odd comment to put in your reply to me.

speakout" and melody can't you see that the personal is political and that wanting changes in the overarching system is a good thing?*

Oh I get you want something changed. I'm not entirely clear what or who you think is going to facilitate this change. The personal is political but nothing is going to change unless there is a change in the personal.

In theory my husband is happy to be the facilitator of my career and the primary domestically responsible person. In practice does it happen? No. Not even equality happens. Is this because I’m married to a chauvinist? Nope. There are bigger things going on here beyond our individual lives and relationships.

If you're facilitated by a nanny, cleaner, haidresser etc they get paid, NI contributions and at least a state pension at the end. SAHM do not.