Men whose lives are facilitated by women - how did this happen??!

[windygallows]

Now that I'm in my mid-40s I look around at my peers and am astounded that so many men my age have their lives facilitated by women: wives who don't work or who work part time who manage the household and make lunch for their DHs and do all the childcare and prop men up. It's just amazing how many men have a leg up by this support.

And they become blind to what it's like not having that support. My boss has a female PA, two female assistants, and a wife at home who looks after the household - leaving him totally supported and completely free to focus on his job. He thinks he's responsible for his success and doesn't understand why others can't mimic what he's achieved or even the time he dedicates to work.

How did we let this happen? How did we create a situation where so many middle aged men have such a leg up over women because they've been given so much support?

I've put this in Feminism because for me this is a feminist issue. If anything this situation it creates an absolute imbalance in life but also in the workplace, with men given much more freedom to dedicate to work and devoid of many domestic responsibilities that burden women.

I've also put this in Feminism because I'm trying to avoid the usual comments by women like 'We're a team' (referring to her and her DP) or comments like 'It works for us' or 'DH works hard and makes enough for both of us - should I go out to work just because you want me to.' blah blah blah I appreciate too that some women benefit from a set up where a DP/DH is 'looking after you' when you then facilitate/prop up his life in return, but I'm not quite sure it's really helping anyone in the grand scheme of things.

For context I'm in my mid40s, single with 2DCs and work FT and definitely frustrated when I see the advantages that 'facilitated men' have in the workplace and in life.

What do you mean?

speakout why are you derailing this thread to focus on talking about how this paradigm doesn't exactly fit YOUR experience? And I'm the OP so as close as it gets to the thread police!

The thread isn't about SAHM or WOHM nor is it specifically about posh women facilitating the careers of their banker husbands. It's about the fact that so men get so much invisible support that gives them a leg up in every part of their life. And this is men from all types of backgrounds doing all sorts of careers.

We fall into this as women and, sure, some women are willing to actively set up to this task because they like it more than the alternative. Doesn't make it a good thing.

step up not 'set up'

windy that's just it, the invisibility of it. The presumption it'll get done. The low pay of cleaners, childcarers, nurses, administrators and the lack of pay and recognition for doing elements of the cleaning, childcare, admin and nursing roles within the family set up.

The irony is, it is precisely because this work is boring and time consuming that I (and many other SAHP / PTers) like to keep our weekends free for family time, and I can't cook or clean or phone the insurance company when DC are awake as they are still very young, thus rendering it all - you guessed it - invisible to them!

Definitely a thought provoking thread.

Although I don't include direct childcare in the boring category for me personally. Always baffles me when people suggest I send DC3 to playgroup "so you can get your jobs done". Direct hands on childcare can be great fun and massively rewarding, but remembering non uniform day and the weekly shop and sending Xmas cards to family members lest you be judged as failing in your wifely duties? Less so!

This thread is particularly pertinent today because it’s the day when the gender pay gap kicks in - when the average woman stops getting paid ina year compared to her male counterparts. 6 weeks on average.

Is part of it not just a natural thing. I'm aware its not the case with every couple but often the woman stays home with the children as they are breastfeeding or simply find it harder to leave their child/children than their partner. Again, I know this is always the case but I know for me personally I have always found it harder to be away from my children than my husband has.

I’m definitely the facilitator that’s allowed him to rise to the top of his field, however he very much acknowledges that he couldn’t do what he does if I didn’t do what I do and I know he appreciates it.

Are we a team? In a way yes, as we’re part of the same household doing our thing for the same cause but in another way no, as he does his thing and I do absolutely everything else (including running a business of my own) and everything I do has helped him rise in his career..even though his career is for the benefit of the family...

But also even though I’m a facilitator he doesn’t spend time doing his own activities and socialising his free time is spent with us and with the children. He’s very much a family man.

Would his username be verystresseddad?

I am in the worst position possible - facilitating a man who works more hours but brings home less money than me as a 3/4 time childminder/online work / market networking.

That fucks me off, I wouldn't mind doing it all if my lifestyle was like many a SAHM down the gym with holidays abroad but my jobs see us through all the time.

One of the problems is the entire having a child thing. The changes the life track that women are on in a large number of ways. If you want a year off per child, if you want a lot of time with your children, if you want as much household income as possible then becoming a facilitator is the clear positive choice for many (but by no means all) women.

DP and I don't have kids but it would fundamentally change everything about our lives if we did. Women let themselves become facilitators as that is the role they want with so much time off work and spending so much time with their kids (especially if they earned more than their partners).

However, the women that have my sympathy are those who are not really facilitators - in that they earn more, their partners careers are not worthing anything - but still do everything. They are more like slaves.

Schnitzel* that’s the username he would give him self no doubt but I would give him the user name YouThinkYoureStressedButTryHavingMyLife*

Strange bold and stars in there for some reason

Anatidae is right.

Women aren't having it all, they are fucking doing it all!

So angry reading this thread.

I'm on mat leave atm, back to work next week. Dreading it as it'll be hard work with the kids etc but by god I need my independence.

Even though DH does his share and I wasn't dependent on him financially whilst on mat leave there is still this undercurrent that I'm the little woman at home and he's 'bringing home the bacon'. He said that once, as a joke and I nearly lost the plot.

If you add up how much a chef, cleaner and nanny would cost most men couldn't afford to pay them. And that's 3 (three, in case it's not quite clear) full time jobs that SAHP do. Along with all the other shitty PA administration, chauffeuring, therapist, etc etc ad nauseum.

I'll tell you what counts for a lot : the ease of knowing everything is done for you.

Towels in the side? Done.
Home cooked meal? Done.
Kids fed and bathed? Done.
Toilet roll been refilled? Yup.

It's all these crappy jobs that a lot of men simply don't have to worry about. So they then have headspace to concentrate on other stuff.

This is a really interesting thread, and I'm glad the OP started it. Lots of different issues and perspectives here, which I'm mulling over.

One thing I wanted to add to the discussion was that I'm currently reading Dale Spender's book, "Man Made Language" which was published in 1980 and refers largely to studies and research from the 1970s. Her key premise is that language, and through that, reality, has been and is still created and structured by men. That women lack even the words to describe their experiences and so men are "dominant" and women are "muted". I'm paraphrasing here, and not doing anything approaching justice to what she says in the book.

I've just got to the part when she mentions that "sexual harassment" was a new term, devised by women, to describe their experience. "Sexism" also was a new word, a new way for women to describe women's reality. I must admit, this was quite shocking for me, because I was 12 in 1980 and have grown up knowing both these terms, but for older women there was no adequate way of describing sexual harassment and sexism!

And here, on this thread, we have "facilitated men". A phenomenon we recognise and previously had no concise way of describing. OP, you have expanded our language - women made language!

Another point Dale Spender makes which is relevant to this discussion is that reality also being "man made" means that women see and understand more than men, because we are always aware of more than them. We live in their reality, but also live our own reality. Men, on the other hand, live in their reality - the one which they have described and created. And I think this goes a not insignificant way to explaining why these facilitated men, and those for whom this is simply the way the world is, don't see this facilitation.

A bit garbled, but I hope this makes some kind of sense!

If you've not read Dale Spender's book, I thoroughly recommend it. Fascinating, albeit a little depressing in that so little has changed since it was published and in many ways we seem to have gone backwards.

I hear your point, I get your point but my life is facilitated by my husband also. I want to work part-time to see my child more, I actually enjoy running my house to an extent. He works full time to allow our household to take the income hit that allows us to have the same lifestyle and still facilitate my need to be at home some of the time.

Oh it's BBQ syndrome, isn't it?

Men go out, light a fire, and stand there all afternoon swigging beer, chatting, turning meat.

Chances are his wife/partner has bought the meat, and the salad and the bread and the drinks and is in the kitchen preparing said salad, putting bread out, heating side dishes and potatoes, setting the table, dishing up hot food, getting people drinks and generally organising everything.

At the end of it all the man is told what a great BBQ he's provided.

Really, all we need are caves, animal skins and clubs. Not a lot has changed.

*puts feet up on sofa in lovely house paid for by DP’s job
*cuddles DC1
*stares out at lovely garden and beautiful lawns mowed by DP
*enjoys peace and quiet because while I relax DP is working
*contemplates just how financially insecure I would be if DP found the time to have an affair and bugger off
*wonders whether I should feel angry because I “do it all”
*remembers that I am perfectly capable of supporting myself and DC should the need arise, thanks to being highly qualified etc. etc.
*muses that I rather enjoying “doing it”
*meditates on misery of most jobs
*sips coffee
*enjoys life

It's all these crappy jobs that a lot of men simply don't have to worry about

Then don't do them. Why do you make rods for your own backs?

I mean "toilet roll re-filled"? I am not sure I've ever done that. There are spare rolls in the bathroom. I don't care if it is in the holder; if it bothers anyone else they are free to do something about it (which my husband does)

So far as the other things on that list- I'm not uniquely qualified to do them. If I am home before my husband I'd probably cook the evening meal ; if I am I not he does. As it is now I am almost never home first.

I find much of this thread very strange. I'm puzzled by what you want. There just seems to be such a huge sense of disatisfaction and grievance but what do you want done about it? I mean don't you discuss this and work it out with your partners?

Are the facilitators getting nothing out of the arrangement? It's just a one way take?

How do you think men and women who both work full time run their lives? I didn’t have a faciltator and neither did my husband. OK I concede we had nannies and cleaners but I didn't spend my non-working hours fretting that the loo roll was correctly aligned in its holder. Why take all this on?

Agreed @lasswithedelicateair

I’m not sure how I feel about the term facilitated.

Ultimately, anyone who has a loving and helpful partner, parents, grandparents, siblings, aunts etc is going to be more ‘facilitated’ in life than those who aren’t loved by as many people.

So partners facilitate each other’s happiness and wellbeing, whether that be economic, social or otherwise.

It’s pretty clear that a lot of men are arseholes who don’t actually love their wives because many men are socialised to be messed up people.

If women are doing anything ‘not good’ here it is remaining in relationships with men who treat them badly. But leaving is difficult - we need to support women more in practical ways.

For those of your arguing that the comfortable PT / sahm life that you enjoy is facilitated by your DH working, you are missing the point of this thread. It’s not about sahm vs wohm, or general quality of life (which I agree is probably better)! This is about (personal) wealth and power and the structural advantages that men have to gain those, and it comes at a cost to women.

I’m a FT worker who earns four times more than my DH, who also works full time (he doesn’t need to, but nobody expects him to stop work for the good of our family, even though our lives would be much easier). I am competing at work with men who do not have to lift a finger at home and can be always available. They don’t have the mental burden of running a home. I have to emphasise at work that I’m the breadwinner or it’s assumed that i don’t take my career as seriously as the men. It’s a real problem for women in the workplace who either are seen as on the mummy track or soon to go on it. There are no older women where I work. Coincidence? I think not.

“Just don’t do the jobs on the list”. Okay. So my dd won’t have a dress for her jazz recital and my cleaner won’t get paid, nor will the car tax. My DH is not a sexist man. He does a lot of practical chores, and the food shopping, But he will not prioritise these things over work (even less important work) in order to make sure our lives run smoothly. It’s a constant battle. I try not to do everything. But men expect (and generally get) the headspace to focus completely on work. It’s hard to break out of these grooves that society has worn us into. And exhausting.

I am a facilitator & ironically also a feminist. I think my lifestyle has made me become a feminist. What is annoying is that DH is absolutely oblivious to the fact that without me he wouldn’t be doing the job that he does. He doesn’t seem to realise that child care is an actual thing & that everything else just seems to sort itself out/fall into place. If ever I bring it up he says things like ‘oh I’d gladly swap you don’t have to drive up & down the country all week” or “I’m doing this job so that you can be a SAHM (something I’ve never actually said I wanted)”

Another one also loving “facilitated men” I do however think the most irritating thing about it is their obliviousness to the support they have. My DH being one of those men!